Fully balanced

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 3917 times.

schmidtmike76

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 314
Fully balanced
« on: 17 May 2016, 12:27 pm »
I went ahead with all Bryston cables and balanced everywhere except between my dac and pre I have a set of balanced coming but have single ended crystal cable on there now.  It sounds amazing as is.  to be fully balanced does every piece have to be balanced or having between pre power get the effect.  Just curious as hooking and unhooking is a big job to pull everything out.  I had on acdc back in black remastered that song angus fades into blackness.  now I understand when people have said the background is different I've never heard that kind of placement before. 

Robert D

Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #1 on: 17 May 2016, 12:45 pm »
schmidtmike76
You answered the question yourself.  :D
The answer is yes. As well you will gain a few db's from the Balanced Cables
What pre amp are you running Bp26   :thumb: ? and your Dac is a Bda-2  :thumb: Bda-3  :thumb:

Regards Robert

Speedskater

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2683
  • Kevin
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #2 on: 17 May 2016, 01:01 pm »
The longer the cable, then more important balanced cables can be. (like to remote amplifiers)
But it's not just about the cable, it's a balanced interconnect system:
Balanced output stage > balanced cable > balanced input stage.
Also most balanced interconnect systems have a different volume level than unbalanced ones. That's something that has to be dealt with.

undertow

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 900
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #3 on: 17 May 2016, 03:17 pm »
It is obvious you are not converting to balanced in the chain magically with Crystal Cable RCA connections in the way... So yes if you want the full balanced signal it will have to be from the source all the way to the outputs to get "Full effect".

However, if it sounds great right now it has little to do with balanced one way or the other because you have just proven it running a single ended source up front. And that is perfectly fine. You will get higher gain going 100% XLR / balanced which in some cases might be too much gain for a system, in others it might help.

All you can do is experiment, I would just go down to your local guitar center and buy some cheap XLR patch cables to test it out, and if you like it knowing you can return those just buy better XLR's after you verify that you feel Crystal Cable RCAs are inferior for your needs.

schmidtmike76

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 314
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #4 on: 17 May 2016, 04:30 pm »
Thanks Robert and everyone else for the replies.  In running a BP25 into 2.5 cubed into BDA-2 with a Cyrus transport for now.  I don't need gain or volume I'm already hitting mid 80 db's which is loud enough for me.  Besides I'm Leary of pushing it anyhow.  I really cannot believe after all these years and money spent how amazing this sounds with a pair of focal 1027be.  My dealer laughs when I tell him megadeth never sounded so good!

Music is my escape so it fills a lot of day on days off.

undertow

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 900
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #5 on: 17 May 2016, 04:41 pm »
It would not necessarily add useable "Gain or Volume" for you in your situation, but what it will do is possibly force you to lower your volume position to compensate vs. where you normally listen.

Only downfall to this is if the gain gets too high in your system then you might not have as much volume "Travel" meaning you go from soft to loud very fast.

Again depending on the system this can be welcome, and in some systems if they have a higher efficiency speaker or something then one might end up at using only the lower portion of the volume travel, like 25% or so, and that could be very limiting as well.

Robert D

Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #6 on: 19 May 2016, 09:57 am »
schmidtmike76
Sorry for not getting back to you.
As well there is a large difference in the sound that a Xlr or balanced cable will produce over a rca.
If you can borrow a pair of balanced cables to do your test that would be the best idea.
Let your ears make the judgment .
Let me know what your ears prefer Rca Or Xlr
Just make sure the cables are not to short ... as well each Xlr connector must be tight
So the path on the signal is Clean.

Regards Robert  :thumb:

schmidtmike76

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 314
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #7 on: 25 May 2016, 02:16 am »
Being fully balanced from pre power and dac to pre does make a big difference.  I'm using all Bryston cables it made the music sound fuller even my wife noticed immediately doing a A/B test.  And you guys were right on the gain I'm hitting 9:00 and almost maxed out to my liking. 

Thanks for all the advice and feedback

G Georgopoulos

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 1253
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #8 on: 25 May 2016, 02:40 am »
time domain issues and phase issues cause distortion in balanced mode,that's why most hifi manufacturers recommend single ended ic's...

Public address dont care about distortion, only noise problems solutions...

hope this helps

schmidtmike76

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 314
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #9 on: 25 May 2016, 03:06 am »
At the risk of sounding uninformed no not really. I'm more of a layman type sorry.

G Georgopoulos

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 1253
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #10 on: 25 May 2016, 04:45 am »
It would not necessarily add useable "Gain or Volume" for you in your situation, but what it will do is possibly force you to lower your volume position to compensate vs. where you normally listen.

Only downfall to this is if the gain gets too high in your system then you might not have as much volume "Travel" meaning you go from soft to loud very fast.

Again depending on the system this can be welcome, and in some systems if they have a higher efficiency speaker or something then one might end up at using only the lower portion of the volume travel, like 25% or so, and that could be very limiting as well.

bridged amps were a concept for more power,similar in concept to balanced ic's,they had tones of distortion, last time i checked they were confined to car amps,imho say no no to balanced ic's   :nono:

Armaegis

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 858
  • slumming it between headphones and pro audio
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #11 on: 25 May 2016, 06:32 am »
>>bridged amps were a concept for more power,

Bridged is not the same as balanced.

Yes, bridged/balanced does allow you to reach higher power. In the simplest terms, it lets you swing at most for double voltage (which technically would let you hit 4x power... but most amps will hit a current limit well before that).

A bridged amp is literally two separate amp channels where the second is running an inverted signal. Both channels reference to ground and would play normally if you connected a speaker at one end and grounded it at the other. But in a bridged config we smoosh the two positive outputs together across the speaker to generate your double voltage swing. 

A balanced amp definition can get fuzzy; I'm gonna gloss over the whole impedance thing and give this slightly different take on it: it is not two separate amp channels. Yes there is a positive and negative leg that are inverted phase from one another, but there is no ground reference. The "channels" reference across to each other in the circuit, not to ground. Do NOT connect anything to ground.

You can also parallel an amp output. I'll let someone else take that one.


>>similar in concept to balanced ic's,

No. Balanced interconnects have nothing to do with power transfer and have all to do with noise rejection and removing ground from the equation which is often a source of noise itself.

Ground loops are a known thing and frustratingly difficult to track down. Dirty grounds are a known and measurable issue. Sometimes you're lucky and your ground is fine. Mine is so bad that my multimeter can't even measure the bloody thing because it jumps so bad. If I have the option, I use balanced IC's all the way and my noise issues almost completely disappear.

Here's a fun thing: balanced does not mean the negative is necessarily inverted from the positive. They merely have to have equal impedance from the ground to ensure high common mode rejection at the receiving end. Heck, the negative leg could really just be driven at 0V, which is not the same as making it ground. Oopsie I used the ugly impedance word. Technically on a balanced amp the negative side could be 0V as well.

>>they had tones of distortion,

Nope. A well implemented balanced (even bridged) amp will exhibit lower distortion. Mostly even order is reduced (I might be mistaken on that). The caveat here is that balanced/bridged configs are more complex, so improperly implemented will indeed product more distortion. By that token though, improperly implemented anything will result in distortion.


>>last time i checked they were confined to car amps,imho say no no to balanced ic's

If your sole reference point for balanced/bridged anything is car audio... well ok I can see where your bias comes from. That is an industry that values pure volume over fidelity, and has extreme cabinet volume constraints as well as harsh operating conditions and incredibly pi$$ poor power tapping off the alternator/battery.


Ugh past 1am, time for bed.

G Georgopoulos

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 1253
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #12 on: 25 May 2016, 07:03 am »


You can also parallel an amp output. I'll let someone else take that one.



same as bridged, even if identical more distortion than just one imho

Armaegis

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 858
  • slumming it between headphones and pro audio
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #13 on: 25 May 2016, 03:56 pm »
same as bridged, even if identical more distortion than just one imho

No, it is not the same.

In the simplest terms, bridged is taking the outputs of two speaker channels, flipping one in polarity, and connecting the speaker load between them. Parallel is taking the output of two channels in the same phase, connecting them together and to one end of the speaker, and grounding the other side of the speaker. Yes there's the chance of increased distortion if things are not matched, but a good design/implementation could potentially reduce distortion as well.

A bridged amp will deliver double voltage, and in theory quadruple current but current limits kick in far sooner than that and it's usually closer to double. A parallel amp delivers the same voltage but has twice the current capacity.

You can in fact have parallel-bridged configs, which is slapping four channels together.

Rod_S

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #14 on: 1 Jun 2016, 07:24 pm »
If bridging was used in the past to get high power output, how are the 7's, 14's and especially 28's able to get to such high power levels with such little distortion as when it comes to the 7 in particular they are just average in size/weight with actually a lot of amps out there double their weight but a mere fraction of their power, like 150 watts to 300 watts.

Armaegis

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 858
  • slumming it between headphones and pro audio
Re: Fully balanced
« Reply #15 on: 1 Jun 2016, 09:33 pm »
The answer to the question could simply be: good engineering.