[woodsyi]

Thank you Brian,

I got my speakers last night.  They are gorgeous.  I have no issue what so ever with the finish.  I don't really see much of light MDF exposed in the recessed part of the ribbon panel slots.  I almost think a black magic marker will do the trick if there is no difference in sound quality.  I have a date with my wife for our anniversary tonight, but I will be playing with them Sunday and I will report my findings.  I am assuming they are factory setting, which by the way is biwire or biamp default setting minus the toggle switch.  I will play with single amp and passive biamp modes before I short the wires to go active crossover.  Thanks again.

[John Casler]

Thank you Brian,

I got my speakers last night.  They are gorgeous.  I have no issue what so ever with the finish.  I don't really see much of light MDF exposed in the recessed part of the ribbon panel slots.  I almost think a black magic marker will do the trick if there is no difference in sound quality.  I have a date with my wife for our anniversary tonight, but I will be playing with them Sunday and I will report my findings.  I am assuming they are factory setting, which by the way is biwire or biam ...

Congratulations!

As it turns out some of the African Ebony cabinets arrived with very pronounced "Orange Flames" in the finish, which are quite striking.

We might call it "Flaming African Ebony"  and it is a very DYNAMIC finish.  Since it is not regular or specific finish, at this time it cannot be ordered as such, but many who have received the finish have been quite taken with it.

[Marbles]

Congratulations!

As it turns out some of the African Ebony cabinets arrived with very pronounced "Orange Flames" in the finish, which are quite striking.

We might fall it "Flaming African Ebony"  and it is a very DYNAMIC finish.  Since it is not regular or specific finish, at this time it cannot be ordered as such, but many who have received the finish have been quite taken with it.

Not that I'm up on this, but isn't "Flaming African Ebony" a black porn star????    

[Brian Cheney]

Black porn star is a $400pr option.

Some of the smaller cabinets (626 and LRC) have the "flames" and some don't.  We'll publish a picture.  

The flames are lite-colored saplines that most dark woods exhibit.

We may offer an all-sapline finish called "Drunken Carpenter".  Let me know if interested.

[woodsyi]

I did a google search on Flaming African Ebony and this is what I found:

http://www.sexyebonybbwaabookclub.com/BDESCRIPTION.HTM

Very interesting stuff!


I got a chance to play with the speakers yesterday and here are some findings and my musings and questions to go with them.

1.  Single amp actually has a lot going for it.  The level matching and crossover slope and frequencies are dialed in for you, giving you a very nice overall sound to work with.  All that's left are putty, pots, speaker placement and acoustic treatmentfor the room!

2.  There may not be any tube amp (none that I can afford) in the world that can drive the RM 40's full-way.  I tried the Hurricane DT200 on these and found no woomph with the woofers.  These mega woofers are tough to drive.

3.  FST supertweeters really open up the highs cleanly.

4.  Innersound ESL mk II amp is  really musical driving RM-40 full way.

5.  Passive biamping with Hurricanes on top and ESL on the bottom sounds the best of all the passive set up I have tried.  

6.  From what I remember, active crossover with Marchand had clearer sound.  I am going to let the system burn in with 2 ss amps (ESL and K2) running continuoussly for a week or two (new interconnects) before going active crossover.  

7.  I am going to have to convince my wife that acoustic panels somehow adds to the aesthetics of the room!  Can acoustic panels be framed with plexiglass and art posters and stil work?

8.  What acoustic treatment work best with wooden paneled walls, carpeted floor and drop ceiling with 2x4 tiles.  Can these ceiling tiles be replaced with acoustic tiles?  

9.  Who is Michael Green and how does his room tuners compare with Real Trap and/or 8th Nerve stuff.  Why doesn't real trap pricelist page work?  

10.  I realize now that I was going through withdrawal without RM40's for the three weeks they were in the shop!

[ekovalsky]

Who is Michael Green and how does his room tuners compare with Real Trap and/or 8th Nerve stuff. Why doesn't real trap pricelist page work?

At least in his old Stereophile ads, he looked a lot like a long-haired Jewish carpenter who had a big following a few thousand years ago  

[meilankev]

Woodsyi,

I don't own one of the then new MLS-based RM40s - mine are 2.5 years old.  In fact, I have never even heard any og the new RM40s.  Perhaps the changes are such that my comments are not applicable.

However, based on my trials (in my system , in my smallish room), my speakers sound their absolute best when powered by tubes full-range (both preamp and power amp).  The Solid State amps I tried were all high-quality - two of which are noted as "high current" amps.

So while I'm not disputing your findings (and you did quantify your statement somewhat), I wanted to make sure that readers of your post don't leap to the conclusion that tubes and RM40s don't mix (unless the amps are mega-buck).  Like many things in audio, the answer is "it depends".

Back on the Harmonic Discord days, Brian himself stated that the tube amps I own provided the best sound he ever heard on stock RM40s (and I assume he never tried the amps with any upgrades).

Kevin

[woodsyi]

Kevin,

What are you using?  I don't see why cabinet would make a difference in the validity of your statement.  I am curious about the type and rating of your tube amp that drives the woofers to your satisfaction.  I love the "organic" sound of tubes without too much "warmth".  I tend to like the "accurate" tube sound rather than "euphonic".  I don't want to give up the tube sound but I have not found any tube amp that can drive the woofers, especially the megawoofer.  That is why I am biamping with a tube on top and ss on the bottom.  A while back, I shorted the woofer crossover and tested the woofers separately with different amps at varying frequency range using a Marchand x-over.  No tube amps were as punchy as SS amps.  I would love to find out what you are using and give it a try.

Respectfully,

Woodsyi

[meilankev]

Woodsyi,

My amps are made by a French company called KORA.  They are 100W Triode - Pure Class A.  And not only do they play to ear-splitting levels in my system, but there's still plenty of headroom left when needed.  

But to be fair, George (zybar) had the same amps (in fact his included some upgrades over mine), and he dumped them in favor of his Rowland digital amp.  He felt the KORAs just didn't have enough juice to control the deep bass and extreme highs (if I remember correctly).  Naturally, I've always been a little confused as to how he and I came to such different results.  A couple of possible reasons are:

1) my Listening Room is pretty small (16' x 15' x 8').  Perhaps George's room is larger, and needs more oomph to fill it with sound.
2) I don't think that George ever fed them a balanced signal (via their XLR connections).  When I used the RCA connections, their performance deteriorated quite a bit.  In fact, I seem to remember something about George not liking the preamp he had at the time (when using unbalanced outs).  Perhaps this played a role.
3) George and I just have different definitions/expectations of "contol".  Neither is neccesarily "right" - we're just different.

Certainly, I don't doubt his knowledge/experience.  We've spoken on the phone a couple of times, and George is a true enthusiast.  But yet, the chasm exists.  Oh well...

Kevin

[Marbles]

Kev, actually I suspect that you have a bass hump in the 40 hz area caused by your room that provides a nice boost to those frequencies, and you therefore don't need more amp than you have.

I suspect that George does not have this "boost" in his room.

I could be wrong though (well that's never really happened before, but it COULD happen  )

[zybar]

Woodsyi,

My amps are made by a French company called KORA.  They are 100W Triode - Pure Class A.  And not only do they play to ear-splitting levels in my system, but there's still plenty of headroom left when needed.  

But to be fair, George (zybar) had the same amps (in fact his included some upgrades over mine), and he dumped them in favor of his Rowland digital amp.  He felt the KORAs just didn't have enough juice to control the deep bass and extreme highs (if I remember correctly).  Naturally, I'v ...

Kevin,

I probably should have not given up on the Kora's before exploring the balanced vs. rca...however, I can honestly say that I don't miss 28 tubes running in pure Class A in my room.

Looking back, I am now confident that I could have achieved better results not just by going balanced, but also by better placement of the speakers.

I am not sure that even these positive changes would have been sufficent given my room size (25'x18'x7') and listening preferences (a little on the loud side).

Anyway, it would be great one day to hear your system and if you are ever in the NYC area, you having a standing invite to pop over.

Enjoy the Tull and any other music you spin.  

George

[meilankev]

Marbles,

Your theory of my room playing a role is certainly possible.  To add some creedence to it, when I tried Room Treatments (2 different occasions), I felt some of the "punch" of my system disappeared.  Perhaps that was just the bass traps smoothing out some room accentuations in the lower frequencies.

To play Devil's Advocate, however, I think the punchiness that diminished did not originate in the deep bass - but rather the mid-to-upper bass.  Also, I don't think the bass traps affect frequencies that low.  Either way, you can bet that I did not keep any Room Treatments.  

But back to your point, none of this negates the fact that I could very well have a bump in the lower frequencies.  

*********************

George,

Yeah, the KORAs put out some heat - no doubt about that.  Fortunately, my Listening Room (and adjoining Bonus Room) are on their own A/C system.  It's funny, while the room is pretty warm all the time (as I never turn off the amps), the room only becomes difficult to cool when I run the Front Projector (in addition to the amps).  Oh well, Summer is almost over, and I can open the window to cool things off quickly.

Should you have possibly kept the KORAs?  Since the fact that your Listening Room contains about 60% more "air" than mine, it's certainly possible you would have never been satisfied with the tubes.  But as you might remember (as well as any Harmonic Discord veterans), I had to return my first KORA preamp because I wasn't able to use the "balanced outputs".  They just didn't provide sufficient gain to allow the amps/speakers to fill my room with sound - anemic, with no headroom.  I was forced to use the RCA outputs to connect to the monoblocks.  And thus the synergy was gone.  It wasn't until I got the replacement preamp (that allowed XLR ---> XLR connections) that I became a smiling customer.  

And if your normal listening levels are louder than mine, you are drifting dangerously close to being labelled a head-banger.  

Finally,  I agree it would be great to meet you.  I've always enjoyed our conversations (both telephone and internet audio sites).  My wife and I still have a bunch of friends in New Jersey, so you never know when we might get back up that way.  I appreciate the open invitation.  And of course, if you ever take a trip to Disney World, you need to block off one evening for "listening to tunes in Tampa".  We'd have a great time.

Jethro Tull??  Yes, those 1970s British Rock bands still send out their siren call sometimes.

Kevin

[woodsyi]

Kevin,

I am sure that room size, orientation and type of boundry surface go a long way in the sound that you get.  Where do you have your speakers?  I have similarly small room (22x14x8).  I am following the Audio Physics model of using the wide side for speakers.  For esthetic and practical reasons, they are only 2 feet off the rear wall and 1 1/2 of the sidewall on the right side -- left is openspace.  Speakers are 11ft apart.   The whole room is 70'sh because it was finished in '79 -- wooden panels, drop ceiling, shaggy carpet (not as shaggy as Nathan's).  In this setting, I found both ARC VT100 (100W push-pull) and ASL Hurricane DT200 (200W ultralinear in triode as well as in penthode mode)  produced "weak" bass compared to SS amps like Innersound ESL mkII (600W 4 Ohms), CJ MFC 200 (400W 4 Ohms) and Crown K2 (800W 4 Ohms).  I have not tried a tube amp running in class A -- too hot to handle.   My guess is that 100W even in class A would not be able to produce tight bass with amplitude in my room in my three bass test songs -- Zepplin's Immigrant Song, Talking head's Burning down the House and the last track on side two of Sonny Rollin's Collosus.

The bottom line is you hear enough bass with your tube amp but I do not with mine.  Given that you do, I take back any generalized allegation on the incapability any affordable tube amp to drive VMPS RM40s full range.  The weather is turning colder, and the oil price is going up.  Perhaps, I should get me some Tubes running in class A to heat my basement?

[woodsyi]

I finally had a chance to get inside and disable the bass crossover to go active triamping.  High pass on the ribbons is 200Hz.  Woofers on RM 40 go from 300hz to 50 Hz.  The lowpass on the Larger is 80 Hz.  My initial impression with the pots all the way up (least amount of resistance) is too BRIGHT.  Around 12 the balance is much better.  Here is what I get.

The mids and highs really are cleaner -- proverbial lifting of the veil.  The first order coil for the bass crossover must somehow "taint" the sound.  I am sure Brian uses it for the gradual slope to get the best overall sound for single or passive biamping.  There is a slight boominess in the lower midbass that I have to work on.  With active triamping, I have frequency and gain of each band as well as the usual putty on PR, speaker placement and room treatment to adjust to get the sound just right. Presently my RM40s are just pure with voices, strings, horns, and woodwinds.  I really do hear things I didn't before.  When I get the bass dialed in, the sound will truely be magical.  

By the way, there is a choke in the TRT cap network that was not there before.