[EDS_]

I know that they do. But is there a trustworthy source that outlines why copper sc should sound different than the same effective guage in a litz?

Or why silver sounds different than copper/gold/aluminum?

Or why tiny differences in ohms/ft etc. seem to cause a large sonic impact.?

Thanks------------

Heartfelt personal obesrvations are appreciated as well as a technical info.

[jqp]

I have asked this before on HD. Apparently the answer is "No, but I will arm-wrestle you".

[audioengr]

According to the analysis, the resistance or inductance of an IC is not important.  Also, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that "Perfect Crystal" type conductors sound better than vanilla wire.  There are also measurements that show that at MHz frequencies, this does reduce the reflections (I have made them).

As a result of the above, my theory is that the difference in these metals is really due to the crystal structure and whether the crystal lattice is continuous or not. Nothing to do with the conductivity etc...

[Kishore]

Good Cables will sound alike with different sonic signatures if rest of system is resolving and "matched".

A radio shack top of line cable was equivalent to my bolder/stage 3 concepts silver/silver audio appasionata cable, in my Aunt's system (oldie celestion speaker, denon 2500 receiver, toshiba DVD/CD player)..
....Go Figure

Cheers,
Kishore

[Sedona Sky Sound]

Hello EDS,

If you are ever down in Austin I will give you a demo of several interconnects and speaker cables. As an Aerospace Engineer by training and former Consultant (Andersen Consulting) by profession, I just could not take all the marketing BS I was getting from the cable manufactures. Therefore, I got my Electrical Engineering book off the bookshelf, read tons of forums/articles/etc, and started from scratch. My personal experience was that Interconnects seemed to make a slightly bigger difference than speaker cables so that is where I started (YMMV).  

Over a two month period I made and tested about 40 different designs. In each case I tried to correlated the measured capacitance, inductance, and resistance to what I actually heard. In most cases the difference was pretty subtle but in some it was not. Except for one or two exceptions, what I heard tracked pretty well with what my measurements had predicted. The final test was to use my wife (who has very good hearing) as a guinea pig in a blind A/B testing format for 6 different cables (one badly designed on purpose, one reference [Straightwire Maestro II], and 4 of my own design). She was able to identify the bad interconnect 100% of the time. Two other interconnects also consistently scored higher than the Straightwire reference (with one scoring higher on every category except for bass).

Based upon my testing, the end result is that for interconnects you want to minimize capacitance as much as possible and resistance and inductance have significantly less effect as long as you do not take them to the extremes (i.e., the use of 32 AWG wire is a resistance extreme). This correlates with basic crossover theory associated with low voltage sources. My "bad" interconnect was 27 strands of individually braided wire I took from high quality Cat5 cable. For this design the Inductance was almost not measurable, resistance was low, but capacitance was through the roof. The high capacitance made the bass bloated and totally killed all the detail in the highs (sounded extremely bad on my system but might be an acceptable tone control for overly bright speakers). I keep these around strictly for demonstrating to people that Interconnects CAN make a difference (it is not a fair comparison but usually shuts up the folks that say interconnects make zero difference).

For speaker cables, my testing seems to indicate that resistance is the most important attribute followed by low inductance (correlates with crossover theory for high current/voltage sources). Capacitance seems to be a non-issue as long as your amp can drive it. For a fullrange tower (especially the VMPS RM40 which likes lots of current), the difference between 14 AWG and 10 AWG is very easy to hear. The difference between medium and low/no inductance is relatively subtle. I personally cannot hear the difference five-9 copper makes, but I "think" I can hear the difference silver (or silver plated copper) makes.

As to your actual question as why a few milli-ohms or mF makes a difference, that is all that is required to change the high/low-pass crossover characteristics by a few percent. Some people say you can't hear this but I personally believe you can. As for my wife, she has the uncanny ability to tell when speakers are more than about .5 dB out of balance even when not in the sweet spot. Audioholics is a great source for technical data (also a great demonstration how personal bias can sometimes create bad conclusions from good science).

For those folks that say they can't hear the difference between cable A and cable B on their system, they are probably correct. I have tried some of my cables on lower-end systems in poor acoustic environments (which is probably what 90%+ of people who listen to music have) and I can't tell the difference between cables either. However, in my state-of-the-sound dedicated demo room, using high-quality speakers and amps (VMPS RM40s powered by Ampzilla 2000s), I am quite sure that 95%+ of the people will hear a very distinct, audible difference.    

I will be in Dallas this Saturday at Mark Schifter's party if you want to discuss in more detail.  

Julian Turner
www.sedonaskysound.com

[Carlman]

But is there a trustworthy source that outlines why copper sc should sound different than the same effective guage in a litz?
Or why Or why .....etc.?

Trustworthy is the toughest part of your question.  
To define it one way, refer to audioengr's answer.  This is about as good of an example as it gets.  I don't know him or his products but, I see that he has put a lot of R&D into his product... and I have read numerous posts by him that make him seem 'trustworthy' in this area... (Don't let this compliment go to your head, just using this as an example.)

If by trustworthy you mean, that one can produce repeatable results with the opinion of that source, then no.  That's not possible because there's a million variables.

Cable technology can be a science for some and a religion for others...  

My arguments on this subject often end with "I'll arm-rassle ya!" as well...

[KevinW]

EDS,
Julian of Sedona Sky Sound has it right... cables DO make a difference in sound, but only if the quality of the rest of your system is up to snuff.  On a very revealing and balanced system, the difference between cables can be very large and noticeable to anyone.  However, there is so much variability between systems that comparing identical cables in different systems can easily produce opposite results.  Especially if a system has other problems with more important components (eg speakers, room, source, amp) - for example if the speakers are too bright, then a rolled-off cable will sound much better in that system compared to a balanced and frequency-neutral cable.

Do you want to buy cables for your system, or you are just looking for education?  If the former, let's hear about your system, what you like and dislike about the sound, and what you would like achieve with an upgrade.  This is where an experienced dealer or manufacturer can use the benefit of their experience to advise you on the tricky subject of cable matching.  For reasons mentioned above, it is a bit of an art matching the sonic and price characteristics of a cable to a system.  A wise consumer will take advantage of an audition or return policy.

It's also my opinion that anyone who tells you that the cables they sell have the best sound in *any* system is being disingenuous.  I am a dealer for Jena Labs, which I think are the best cable I have ever heard, but that doesn't mean I would recommend my cables for every customer.  In fact I just had a fascinating experience where my cables sounded fantastic in one part of a customer's system, and lousy in another.  The moral of that story is that digital amps change everything about cable design, but matching cables to a system sometimes requires experience or trial and error.

One more thing about cable differences that hasn't been mentioned yet.  Cryogenics also makes a large difference in sound quality.

[EDS_]

Hi Guys:
Thanks for all the input-it helps.

Here are my line-up cards:

Main rig-
Sources-Rotel RDV-1080 (cd-DVD-A), Philips SACD 1000, Cary CD 303-
Pre-amp-Adcom GFP-750-
Amp-Llano Trinity-300 (hydrid SET-class A tube voltage stage, pure class-A MOSFET output stage)-
Speakers-Hales Revelation III (heavily modified, reworked x-overs)-

Monster cable interconnects (two sets obviously) these replaced my AQ-Topaz, which are crappy junk IMO.
I use all original powercords.
I have Tara-labs RCS Prime, Kimber 8TC and AC Goertz flat copper wires-I listen to the Tara-labs 95% of the time.

Bedroom rig-
Source-Rega Planet-old style-
Pre-amp-Creek OBH-10 passive remote volume control-
Amps-VTL TT-25 monoblocks (Tiny Triode 25 wpc in triode)
Speakers-Triangle Zephyr-II speakers-

All original power cords and included crappy interconnects and another set of Kimber 8TC speaker wire.
This little rig sounds better than it should.


I plan to do three things shortly-
1. Re-wire the main rig. (I've planned this forever)
2. Set up a seperate 5.1 audio rig-from scratch.
3. Set up an HT room for a friend of mine-again from scratch.

I may upgrade my speaker arrangement in my two channel rig as well.

To the point I can easily tell differences between my Tara-labs and Kimber speaker cables. The Tara are much more relaxed and maybe a tad rolled off on top. The Kimber seems brighter and has "louder" but less satisfying bass-all at the expense of the middle, the midrange from the Taras is near perfect for me. I grant the above is strictly contextual to my system.

[beat]

I just finished building a set of five nine silver interconnects using the Venhaus design....DANG! They are far from burnt in but they kick butt already. I am very impressed. I think I spent maybe thirty bucks total. I used 22 ga conductors. silver cardas rcas, cardas solder, pe for the center structure instead of the prescribed teflon. If anyone has been considering trying them I encourage you to give it a shot. I really doubt you will be disappointed. They really dont sound as bright as I was expecting either.
http://venhaus1.com/

[beat]

Upon listening to different cds I have found that in most there is alot of detail revealed. Radiohead has never sounded so good.  In some other recordings (the new coldplay) there are some passages that are overly bright...I will see if it is tamed after burn in. I would like to try this recipe using gold or this gold covered copper alloy I get from the jeweler supply.

[ponies58]

Is the Sedona Sky Sound fellow still around in Austin, TX?  If so, please contact me.  I live in Georgetown just N of Austin and am interested in discussions with you.