Inverted Phase Question

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andyr

Inverted Phase Question
« Reply #20 on: 1 Oct 2004, 12:02 pm »
Gentlemen,

There are two quite different issues at work here:

1.  Firstly, your R & L speakers have to be in the same *relative* phase.  There are many test tracks which enable you to get this right ... if your speakers are "in phase" then the sound of a stereo LP/CD/tuner quite clearly comes from between the speakers.

If you have the speaker wires which go to one speaker reversed, then you hear a strange "phasey" sound ... you can't quite figure out where the sound is coming from.

A sub-issue of this, if you are multi-wiring your speakers, is if one driver out of the 2/3/4 in your speaker is in the wrong phase, relative to all the others.

2.  Then you have "absolute phase" or "absolute polarity".  This is associated with the fact that, when a singer blows into a microphone, you should see the drivers coming forwards.  If, instead, the speakers go backwards then your speakers are in "reverse polarity".  A "suck" sounds quite different to a "blow".

Regards,

Andy

PhilNYC

Inverted Phase Question
« Reply #21 on: 1 Oct 2004, 12:49 pm »
Quote from: orthobiz
But if the Rives CD helps test phase, wouldn't that secondarily allow you to know if your polarity was right?

biz


Not really.  If your left and right channel are out of phase with each other, you basically lose all of your imaging.  The Rives CD shows you that very clearly.  But just knowing that your L/R channels are out of phase with each other doesn't tell you which one is "correct" or which one is "wrong".  

Btw - I do own the Rives CD, and have found it to be very useful...

orthobiz

Inverted Phase Question
« Reply #22 on: 1 Oct 2004, 09:08 pm »
I just think I am meant to be forever slightly confused about this issue. I'll try just listening to the music and not worry too much about it.

biz

andyr

Inverted Phase Question
« Reply #23 on: 1 Oct 2004, 10:51 pm »
Quote from: orthobiz
I just think I am meant to be forever slightly confused about this issue. I'll try just listening to the music and not worry too much about it.

biz
Hi, biz,

It's really quite simple and is something you need to know, to get maximum enjoyment out of your music.  Let's take the simplest situation, speaker wise, where your speakers each consist of one full-range driver.  And I'm talking stereo here, although the same principle applies to multi-channel.

To get a stereo image, you need to have these speakers connected the same relative to each other.  Again, let's make 3 simple assumptions:
a)  your speaker terminals are coloured 'red' and 'black' - red generally means 'hot' or 'signal' and black means 'earth' or 'return'.
b)  your speaker cables also have a red and a black connection (spade, banana plug ... whatever).
c)  your amplifier and your speakers have all been built correctly, so wires are soldered to their correct terminals inside the cabinets.

Connecting the R & L speakers "in phase" means:

1.  the red cable is connected to the red speaker terminal and the black cable to the black terminal ... for both speakers

OR

2.  the red cable is connected to the black speaker terminal and the black cable to the red terminal ... for both speakers.

In both of the above cases, the speakers are "in phase" and you will hear a stereo image firmly anchored between your speakers.

However, if one speaker is reverse connected, compared to the other, you will hear a strangely muffled sound which floats around from side to side and is NOT sirmly positioned between the speakers.  This is the "out-of-phase" situation.

The above is the most obvious "phase" issue and is the one most people think of when they hear the term "phase".  However, it should really be called "relative phase" - ie. relative to the other channel.

However, there is another issue.  Take 1. & 2. above.  They are obviously two different ways of connecting the speakers which both keep the correct *relative* phase.  However, 2. is reversed from 1.

We would say (all other things in the sound chain being correct) that 1. has the correct "absolute phase"  while 2. is "inverted".

What's the implication here? ... if, say, a singer stands in front of you (in the room) and blows, then this sound pressure comes towards your ears.  If the singer blows into a microphone, and it's all been recorded correctly, then you should see your speaker drivers moving outwards, towards you, so you experience the same forward pressure coming towards your ears.

If, however, you see the drivers moving backwards, then your system has "inverted polarity".  If you think about it, what the speakers are producing is the sound of the singer sucking rather than blowing ... and this has a different sound!

If you think of the leading edge of a transient like a cymbal hit, if your system is showing "inverted absolute phase" (a better term for this is "inverted polarity"), then the cymbal hit will sound very weird!

Unfortunately, many LPs and CDs are not recorded with the correct polarity, so it's hit and miss if you are hearing them "right" or "wrong".  That's why it's a boon to have a "polarity reversal" switch - at least you can flick the switch and decide if one way sounds a lot better than the other.

Regards,

Andy

orthobiz

Inverted Phase Question
« Reply #24 on: 1 Oct 2004, 11:52 pm »
Thanks Andy!
It actually helped.

But...

was it on a different thread where someone had plans for a polarity switch? It seemed complicated and was more than just a mechanical switch that would just turn around various wirings.

I shudder to ask (in case it means I missed the whole point and really don't understand again) but

are "phase" and "polarity" similar?

biz

andyr

Inverted Phase Question
« Reply #25 on: 2 Oct 2004, 11:18 pm »
Quote from: orthobiz
Thanks Andy!
It actually helped.

But...

was it on a different thread where someone had plans for a polarity switch? It seemed complicated and was more than just a mechanical switch that would just turn around various wirings.

I shudder to ask (in case it means I missed the whole point and really don't understand again) but

are "phase" and "polarity" similar?

biz
Hi, biz,

You asked "are 'phase' and 'polarity' similar"?  Yes, they are ... although I believe engineers prefer the term "polarity".  The issue in this thread is "relative polarity" vs. "absolute polarity" - which I hope you can now see are different beasts.

In a conventional, RCA-based "unbalanced-IC-connected" system you cannot just flip the 'signal' wire with the 'earth' wire on a switch inside the case to change "absolute polarity".  In a "balanced" system, you can.

Therefore, for an "unbalanced" system, as well as a switch you need some electronics to do this inversion for you - the switch is simply there to enable you to select either the "input" signal or the "inverted" signal to go through to the output RCAs.

Regards,

Andy

orthobiz

Inverted Phase Question
« Reply #26 on: 3 Oct 2004, 01:54 pm »
Thanks again, Andy,
I'm in an RCA interconnect world right now so it will be a few years before I find myself "balanced!"

biz