Power Cords- Sonic benefit or not??

PJ · « **Reply #40 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 02:21 pm »

Most of the tunneling stuff is really interesting and is used to great effect in many everyday items. It can all be explained with logic, but it is quite abstract and hard to comes to terms with. Most of the confusion comes from peoples perception of what an electron is (a particle/ball), meaning its behaviour seems undigestible for some people.

I dont think this has been turned into a war at all. However, I am interested as to the science behind it.

Occam · « **Reply #41 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 02:39 pm »

Hey PJ,

I realize that the variable subjective perceptions of powercords is quite frustrating. And frankly, I'm unsure what makes a good powercord. But I do know what can make a bad pc. Sadly, the result of my own dumbass attempts at building a better mousetrap.
I can only suggest the following -

1. Get some Volex 17604/5 -
http://www.carlton-bates.com/cb/invsrch/invframe.asp?srchfield=stkmfgpart&vendor=ALL&codevend=ALL&sval=17604&submit1=Go
2. Compare them by DBT or whatever protocol you desire to a generic 16ga cord on a class AB poweramp, something with a changing current draw.
This should remove anecdotal reports and that dreaded Hawthorne effect.
3. Call Unicable (unicable.com) and cadge [you've got to be able to talk the talk] a Unicable 6450. This is their 14ga shielded cord, nominally equivalent to the Volex.
4. Repeat #2 above, between the Volex and Unicable. (yes, when I did this, I actually replaced the moulded plugs on both with Marincos to eliminate that variable)
5. Out of frustration, perform a circumcision on both cables to discern WTF would account for the vastly differing, subjective perceptions. Also measure all parameters between all legs of the circuit.

I certainly understand why a trained engineer would dismiss this 'nonsense' of 'mo betta' powercords. But a simple empirical experiment will show you that it really does matter, in a repeatable, statistically significant way.

Based on this minimal empirical experimentation, it will also become clear why those cords that use multiple twisted pair or star-quad to increase accross the line capacitance and/or EMI rejection have to give up shielding

woodsyi · « **Reply #42 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 02:44 pm »

I am not trying to provoke any war. I am just saying that hard science becomes "fuzzy" on the quantumn or cosmic levels. All we really get is a map -- not the real thing as Heisenberg "proved". There may be interactive reasons for a particular power cord to "produce" better sound with a set of equipment.

zybar · « **Reply #43 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 02:58 pm »

Quote from: Dozer

George: Why do you ask with such incredulity "is it in my head?" Do you have an immunity to the placebo effect which bedevils all mortals? Why would it be hard to believe that your brain's interpretation of sound is "in your head" and subject to all the other stuff that's in there? Don't you believe in the power of positive thinking - the power of the mind?

Dozer,

Sorry it came across that way.

I don't think I have immunity to placebo effect, but my friends and I have done double blind tests and we can hear differences (both positive and negative) when inserting after market cords vs. stock ones. We have gone as far as to write our comments down and discuss after in an effort to not sway somebody via peer pressure.

As Phil noted in a previous post, when everybody hears the same thing, is it in everybody's head?

I guess my real point is that I don't know why, but cables (be they power, digital, analog make a diffference) make a difference. My heart and head tell me that. Now if somebody can measure it scientifically that's great, but I don't need that validation.

YMMV

George

PJ · « **Reply #44 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 03:02 pm »

Hey Occam,

I have never said that powercords make no difference in peoples systems....only that I dont understand why and am interested in why they might. However, I will continue to refute any "scientific" explanations that I consider to be incorrect.

I can't see myself trying your experiement as I can't get those cables in Australia. Even if I could, I would probably rather spend the money on music instead

I could by the latest 12" progressive house single for the price of one of those powercords

.

Woodsyi,

Reverse your thinking

. All the principles of Quantum physics are relevant in the real world, but it's just that their effects are not noticed until you reach the quantum level. As for the cosmic level

.

Occam · « **Reply #45 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 03:32 pm »

Hey PJ,

Sorry for the USA-centric response. I agree that noone has come up with a vaugely plausable explanation for the variability of power cord performance. I'd hazard that it might have something to do with the non congruence of voltage and caurrent draws, i.e Power Factor issues. (I'm curious as the the efficacy of different powercords when used with PFC ZVS/ZCS switching suppies). But I've really no clue....

But when in doubt, go all non-Newtonian upside the other guy's head

PhilNYC · « **Reply #46 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 04:00 pm »

Thought I'd throw another curve into this...

I recently asked a manufacturer if he had a particular power cord he thought worked well with his products. His answer? "Depends on what part of the country you are in, because different geographies get different AC depending on who the provider is".

Comments?

nathanm · « **Reply #47 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 04:57 pm »

Redirect all the aftermarket cable industry money into the construction of a dedicated, centralized power company (perhaps nuclear) which pumps out clean AC to subscribing audiophiles separate from the normal power grid. You will know when you see the audiophile power grid as you drive along the freeway because all the wires have got that cool glow in the dark sleeving on 'em and they're supported on giant three way chopstick utility poles made from maple tree trunks. If anyone so much as plugs in a laser printer or electric motor on the audiophile grid they will be forcibly removed from their homes, placed in a stockade at a CES show and fellow audiophiles can come by and whip them with a leather strap @ five bucks a whack.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #48 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 05:13 pm »

Quote from: nathanm

Redirect all the aftermarket cable industry money into the construction of a dedicated, centralized power company (perhaps nuclear) which pumps out clean AC to subscribing audiophiles separate from the normal power grid. ...

Would the nuclear power plant be shielded or unshielded?

nathanm · « **Reply #49 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 05:24 pm »

It would be encased in 30 foot thick Mu metal walls and the entire structure would sit on four giant brass cones, cryo-treated of course.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #50 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 05:28 pm »

Quote from: PhilNYC

Quote from: nathanm
Redirect all the aftermarket cable industry money into the construction of a dedicated, centralized power company (perhaps nuclear) which pumps out clean AC to subscribing audiophiles separate from the normal power grid. ...

Would the nuclear power plant be shielded or unshielded?

Why Phil...it should be unshielded, so we can see the glow. I guess the best location might be in New Jersey.....

PhilNYC · « **Reply #51 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 06:10 pm »

Quote from: lonewolfny42

Why Phil...it should be unshielded, so we can see the glow. I guess the best location might be in New Jersey.....

Fine by me...NJ audiophiles would have the shortest power lines, and therefore the best AC...

MikeTz · « **Reply #52 on:** 10 Sep 2004, 02:07 am »

Now here is a guy with no strong feelings on some of our most debated subjects including power cords (see Power Conditioners in the article):

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/

Check out the article on "The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio" for entertainment.

MT

Carlman · « **Reply #53 on:** 10 Sep 2004, 03:05 am »

Quote from: MikeTz

Now here is a guy with no strong feelings on some of our most debated subjects including power cords (see Power Conditioners in the article):

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/

Check out the article on "The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio" for entertainment.

MT

Wow. Yep, that'd irritate quite a few people. Audiophilism is a religion not to be reckoned with... I'd be scared if I was the dude that wrote that.

I noted he's a Bryston worshipper. However, I agree with him about everything he said for something you'd buy in Circuit City or even some hifi shops... just depends on what it is, how it was made, etc... However, he doesn't indicate much about what he speaks... just that he knows everyone else is wrong.

nathanm · « **Reply #54 on:** 10 Sep 2004, 06:12 am »

Didn't agree with everything in there necessarily, but I'm glad such things get written. That stuff needs to be said. (Great page layout too. Well, not for a screen-viewed PDF necessarily, but that wasn't the original format.) I think ABX testing would be very cool to do, as long as the reason you're doing it is to learn about yourself and not necessarily to be grilled by someone who is sure that you won't be able to hear any difference and set prove as much. I can't figure why anyone would be prideful about their own listening ability. If you can't tell, hey great, you'll learn something useful. Then you'll know if it's OK to pick gear on cool cases or not!

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #55 on:** 11 Sep 2004, 04:16 am »

The better the power delivery/noise control rig the less difference between power cords. A properly executed rig will still let you hear differences and you'll find that quite a few of the power cords are designed as filters which adversely affect the audio band. Stay away from cords which affect the audio band.

The VenHaus power cords do not affect the audio band and are highly recommended by yours truly. Also, the Absolute Power Cord (cryo'ed), Tice PC3 (cryo'ed), Marigo, AudioPrism Super Natural 9.5 do not limit bandwith.

Some of the popular DIY cords will sound fuzzy in a system with proper power delivery/noise control. As previously stated, line level gear tends to be more reactive to changes in power cords. Clear enough?