[CMM]

Thought some might interested in new Dulcet review at 6moons.com

[Red Dragon Audio]

I thought the review was pretty darn close to what I heard when I was at CES last year.  The little Dulcets sure do surprise by their unfettered sound and amazing low end response.  I was in that room for over an hour just enjoying the music coming out of the Dulcets.

Of course no one should expect a 4" driver to be ultimate in overall SPL's when it comes to rock, orchestral or pipe organs but if you were to mate the Dulcets with a pair of very quick/articulate/fast subs you would be able to reach much more dynamic listening levels all while retaining the disappearing act of the Dulcets.

Think about that for an awesome system: A pair of Dulcets with a pair of Vandy 2WQ subs doing the heavy lifting below 80hz which releases the Dulcets from the strain of low bass.  Talk about a sweet system.  Even just one 2WQ would be killer.

 

[philltubes]

Actually, I have been told a sub system for de cappo i is in the works.

[Red Dragon Audio]

Funny after I wrote that last post I wondered why they didn't have a sub system for the De Capos.

I know the Royal Masters had a passive isobaric system that also doubled as a speaker stand for the RM's.

But I would rather have a seperate sub so I can place it for best bass response and get my DC's in the best spot for stereo imaging, depth, clarity etc.

I wonder if the Reference 3A sub will be as good as the vandy subs (they are one of the very best out there IMHO).

[Terry]

I queried Divergent Tech. about the rumours of a dedicated sub system for the DeCapos about a year ago. Tash indicated that they were working on it and that it should be out in a few months (that would have been the fall of 2003). Obviously, this date has slipped. I think the problem is going to be one of cost. Building a sub system that will not degrade the performance of the DeCapo and remain affordable is not easy. Indeed, the Royal Suprema was basically such a system and it cost a great deal.

[Red Dragon Audio]

Yes the cost is an issue but I think one sub is already out that would mate very well with the DC's/Dulcets/RV's and would only help them sound even better/more dynamic/open/full and so forth: the vandy 2WQ subs.

At $1295 retail they are a bit expensive for a sub (to me at least...there are many subs that cost substantially more).

So let's say you buy a pair from a retailer and he gives you a good deal...two vandy subs for $2200 (you can find them used for much less if you are patient).

So you have spent $2500 on your DC's and now $2200 on a pair of SOTA subs.   So you have full range sound for under $5000 but there is more to it than that...and I have said this before and will say it again:

You get the versatility of stand mount monitors; vanishing act, easy to move around the room for best placement; great depth, imaging etc

PLUS

You get a pair of the best subs out there which you can now place for optimal bass response.  Not to mention they will help take the load off your amp and DC's.  They will take over at 40Hz and below which is where the DC's fall off anyway so why even bother having them try to play anything that low?


Anyway...when I have the money and the room to do this, I will most certainly be getting a pair of Vandy subs to mate with my DC's (right now I have super cheap subs which are fun for movies but I have heard vandy subs with my DC"s and I know what bass should really sound like now).

END OF RANT.

[davejcb]

Hey Ryan,

Why the hardon for the Vandy subs specifically? Are they the cat's ass for subs or something? Have you heard any other, such as REL, etc?

[Terry]

Unfortunately, I cannot agree with your assessment of the Vandy subs. Although this sub has very low distortion and would probably integrate very well with the 3As, it has one glaring flaw: you must place a crossover directly into the signal path (usually between preamp and amp). I used a Vandy for a number of years with a pair of Quad ESLs and, although it definitely improved the dynamics of the system, I could always detect when the crossover was placed in the system. There was always a little bit more dirt and grit that was clearly audible through the Quads. As the 3As are as equally revealing as the Quads, you could not help but detect this added grunge. Incidentally, I used the very highest quality Vandersteen fixed crossover, basically just a capacitor and resistor, in the circuit. About the only way to avoid this is to use a sub that has speaker level connections, such as the REL. The REL has other problems, of course.

[Red Dragon Audio]

Hey Ryan,

Why the hardon for the Vandy subs specifically? Are they the cat's ass for subs or something? Have you heard any other, such as REL, etc?

In that price range there isn't much competition I think.  I have heard subs from Velodyne, B&W, M&K, Sunfire and Totem.  I was able to bring my previous system (still had the DC's then) up to the Vandy dealer and listen to the 2WQ integrated with it.  Outstanding.  The dealer also hooked up the Totem sub he had on hand to give me an idea of the "typical" sub sound.  No contest.  The Vandy was just better in every area.  Seemly integration, tight low bass, no boominess to the sound, quick, articulate and what the way it was integrated in the system made it disappear entirely.

I would very much like to hear the REL line of subs b/c they come so highly recommended but there isn't a dealer nearby.

Sad thing is, I can't even use a Vandy 2WQ sub in my system now b/c i have the integrated amp...you have to have seperates to make it work...or some way to get in between the preamp section and amplifier section of the integrated (mine is that Panasonic XR45 digital amp and I don't feel like ripping it open to do that).

[Red Dragon Audio]

Unfortunately, I cannot agree with your assessment of the Vandy subs. Although this sub has very low distortion and would probably integrate very well with the 3As, it has one glaring flaw: you must place a crossover directly into the signal path (usually between preamp and amp). I used a Vandy for a number of years with a pair of Quad ESLs and, although it definitely improved the dynamics of the system, I could always detect when the crossover was placed in the system. There was always a little bit more di ...

Hi Terry,

Don't know why there was added grit to your system.  I have used PLLC's before and never was able to detect anything but improved sound unless there was an impedence mismatch or something.  Or maybe there was something wrong with the parts Vandy used.  I don't know.

I would not consider that fixed crossover a "glaring flaw".  A resistor and a capacitor on the line level are much less problematic than say in a speaker level crossover.  I would be more worried about the huge coils and caps in a speaker than small ones inline with your amp.  That's just me though.  Besides...I don't even have to worry about a real nasty xover in my DC's

I don't know why in your case the crossover made such a nasty impact in your system.  Many variables unaccounted for but I have never once heard the vandy sub do anything but improve the sound of any speaker I have heard it with.

With my own DC's, with Vandy 2CE and 3A signatures and Wilson Benesch speakers.  


Of course I'm not the Diety who can say with absolute authority that vandy subs are the end all to your sub search.  I just like them.  A lot.  

[Terry]

Let me clarify my statement. Although I could detect when the Vandy crossover was in the circuit, I did continue to use the sub with my Quads because it added a foundation and allowed the system to play at louder levels. This was particularly beneficial with large scale classical music and I was certainly happy that I had the sub in the system. However, when listening to smaller scale jazz, vocals etc.,  I would often unplug the sub from the system and the improvement in midrange clarity was obvious. I believe some of the reason for this was due to the transparency of the Quads - they just revealed everything farther up the equipment chain. Incidentally, the fixed crossover that Vandersteen provided was far, far superior to the the variable crossover (the little black box) that comes with the sub when purchased. This was simply horrible.
I do believe that the Vandy sub is one of the best available. It was much better than several others that I tried (Velodyne etc.) and this, of course, is the reason that I purchased it for my system.

Cheers,

Terry

[Red Dragon Audio]

Hi Terry,

Your clarification is very...errr...clear.   a clarification that is clear...geez I am not good with words

I can see how the Quads would be too revealing even for the vandy sub.  maybe a bit too quick too.

Cheers!