[Muser]

Hi guys:
My Onkyo 885(b) is having problems - rather than pay to fix them, I'm looking to replace it with something slightly newer. Sonically, the Onkyo sound was "OK" for movies. For the new preamp, I'm looking for a good, rich timbre, good definition (not hunting for microscopic detail)room correction and HDMI switching. I want to stay under $1,0000 as I'm also buying an EAR 868 for vinyl and high fidelity digital. (The 868 has a bypass that operates without having to power up)

So, I'm thinking of an NAD M15, not the M15HD2. Any reason to avoid the M15?
I recall reading that it made noise switching HDMI sources (or ?) were those issues imagined, real and incurable or real and "cured?"
I know there are new codecs coming out all of the time, but that's way less important to me than good sound and reliability.

FWIW, I'm using an Oppo 105 as a source, powered ATCs across the front and Pioneer speakers as rear channel. I have modest ambition for surround sound.

Looks like the Anthem AVM30s don't do HDMI and while the 40s do, they are over my budget. Do they sound as good as the NAD?

I know Marantz is well regarded, but do they sound as good as the NAD? While the Marantz is a veritable Swiss Army Knife, I would prefer a simple pocket knife that cuts well (sounds good).

In advance, thanks,
Larry

[srb]

What are you using for rear amplification?  What about an Anthem MRX-310 receiver, using two of its amplifier channels for the rear?  Over your budget at $1200 new and under if you can find one used.

Steve

[Muser]

Steve:

Thanks, I thought about the Anthem receivers, too.

I have a five channel Parasound amplifier that's driving the center and rear channel speakers.

Have you heard the sound quality of the Anthem versus the NAD? A friend's passing comment was that the Anthem wasn't as good sounding as the NAD, though I haven't heard either recently. Sound quality, frankly is way more important to me than more dongles, widgets etc. 

Larry

[Doublej]

Have you considered a processor from Emotiva or Outlaw?

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/top-picks-processors-and-power-amps

[WGH]

I can recommend the Outlaw 975 for the home theater part, it doesn't have many bells and whistles (no room correction) but it always sounds natural and is never strident, probably would be a good match with the revealing ATC's. I use the Oppo 103 to spin Blu-rays and DTS-HD Master Audio always sounds great.

The Outlaw's two front channels go into an AVA Fet Valve pre-amp --> AVA Synergy 450 --> Salk HT2-TL.
The Outlaw's center and rear go directly into an AVA 240/3 Insight amp --> Raw Acoustics with the Aurum Cantus ribbon center speaker and home made surrounds.

Both the Salk and Raw use ribbon tweeters so if the Outlaw 975 was the slightest bit harsh sounding I would hear it, and it doesn't.

Wayne

[jarcher]

In my limited experience an NAD pre-pro is going to give you a somewhat warmer sound than an Anthem.  My problem with "boutique" company pre-pros is that they are behind on technology & cost WAY more - and some of it is just "bells & whistles", but some are quite important.  And beyond the obvious HDMI connections (unless you want the hassles of an external switcher), to me being able to decode DTS HD Master Audio and Dolby Digital TruHD (less used) are MUSTS. From there the quality of the automated room correction software, with Audessy and Anthem Room Correction being the best.  Most of the other "bells & whistles" you can just ignore.  I do think that Marantz's M-DAX technology does make low rez streaming audio sound a lot better. 

For all those reasons I'd go for Marantz or Anthem, if you can afford it.  More than 2 years ago I got an Anthem D1 for $800 on EBay.  No HDMI but otherwise had everything else I needed.  If you can get a D2 - or receiver - within your budget, that's what I would do if you're going to do a lot of 2 channel music listening.  I ended up selling the Anthem D1 (at a profit!) because the external Anthem Room Correction unit was a hassle and it only did 6.1 channel analog out (but 7.1 channel in?) - and between that and having to use an external HDMI switcher, it wasn't worth the hassle vs a Marantz Pre-Pro which was slightly left behind sound quality wise.

For maximum value it's hard to beat a Marantz.  The sound is a bit less "meaty / analog" than an Anthem - Marantz tends to the more "ethereal" clarity + crystalline and somewhat sweet top end, with the bottom end typically being the soft spot.  But your Parasound will help a lot to give it the slam & grunt you need for HT - with the "classic" units sounding darker (and actually a good match) and the Halo being more bright. 

I'd also experiment a bit with running the Oppo via HDMI for sound vs analog out to flavor to your preference. 

Nice thing about Marantz is there's really little need to go "flagship" : 90% of the components are the same, so some medium range Marantz AVR with multichannel analog out are sufficient - such as an 6007 (or whatever # they are up to now).  E.g. I've had and compared back to back an SR5005 & AV7005 pre-pro (own both), and yeah, the AV7005 was better - but not 3 times better at 3 times the cost.  More like a 20% improvement (not sharing a trannie w / the amp, a sprinkling of better caps - so a bit "blacker / cleaner" background.  I bought it for the balanced analog outs for my Krell - and that value was debatable as well.  Marantz has "fake" balanced - i.e. XLR's but no true balanced circuit for either pre pro or their HT amps.

Accessories4less.com has "refurb" deals on Marantz receivers at sometimes as much as half off new - and usually w/ better warranties than new!  "Refurb" sometimes means they are just repackaged returns or "b" stock. I swear sometimes I think they ARE 100% new and they just put there AC4L sheet inside (i.e. Marantz just want's an excuse to move excess inventory). Anyway - I've bought plenty of refurb Marantz's for myself and others from AC4L and had a hard time distinguishing from new. None have failed on me. Save your $ for a better DAC, speakers, cables - or God forbid - for some media!

[jarcher]

Yeah - the more I look into this & the state of the market now, would definitely not get an NAD M15, and perhaps not even an Anthem MRX 500.  The M15 (1st gen) is now really out of date (2 HDMI / No DTS-HD MA / DD Tru HD / no automated room correction).  This is only good if you use the analog out of the Oppo and only have need for two HDMI's and don't care about ARC (mistake).  All for more than the SR5008 suggested below. 

As for the Anthem MRX 500, the Anthem Room Correction (ARC) is supposed to be pretty decent, but having to use a laptop and run software then connect to the receiver to download, etc.  Way to kludgy.  Unless your 90% music, I'd honestly go for :
 
A refurbed Marantz SR5008 :

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marsr5008/marantz-sr5008-7.2-network-home-theater-receiver-with-airplay/1.html

Yeah - only $500, but has 7.2 pre-outs, DTS HD MA + DD TruHD, Audyssey XT, so does everything the upper units do but w/ lower amp power, which you don't need.  Will definitely sound better & more musical than an Onkyo. 

If you want one with an internal DAC that can handle 24/192 and DSD + AIFF + bluetooth, the SR5009 is currently sold out - but it costs $200 extra ($699) for that marginal benefit (spend the $ on a better DAC). 

Or you could spend more than double for a stand alone pre-pro, the Marantz AV7701 and get nothing more than slightly better sound, fake balanced outputs, a MM phono stage, an additional HDMI output, and Audyssey DSX, all of which you don't need at that price premium. As you can see I'm leery of the advantages of a Marantz pre-pro over the receiver models, even owning one myself (AV7005). 

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marav7701/marantz-av7701-7.2-4k-3d-av-preamp/processor-networking/1.html

Hope that helps!

[Muser]

Wayne and Jarcher, thanks for your thoughts and effort you were helpful.

My performance criteria are entirely for movies and games. I have a high quality digital and vinyl setup for music. Pre-pro performance is only important for movies and games . . . and well, really only for music. My son doesn't care about the sound quality for Mario, et al. And butt smashes need only so much verisimilitude for me.

Jarcher, your comments on auto room correction got me to re-read a review by Thomas Norton at Sound and Vision. Norton notes that the NAD doesn't have onscreen displays for HDMI. That's a killer for me. FWIW, true or not, hometheaterrview.com indicates the M15 has MultiEQ Pro by Audyssey. But, thank you very much your thoughtful reply had me look at that issue again.

Since I'm indulging on an EAR 868 ($ OUCH!), I wanted to save money on the pre-pro. So, I'm back to the drawing board on budgeting, looks like I'll have to up my budget and increase my savings. The 868 is more important to me than some sacrifices on the pre-pro - I can still live with my hobbled Onkyo for awhile. Again, latest codecs, etc. still aren't terribly important to me as long as I can play stuff back on Netflix, I'm good. But, I want a few conveniences and good sound quality.

Wayne, in the interest of brevity, I didn't lay out all of my criteria so your advice was helpful within the context of what I said - thanks again.

Since I've got to rejigger my budget, it appears my inquiry is premature. I'll be back later, I think.

With appreciation.
Larry

[jarcher]

Hi Muser :

I've read through the TJM / S&V 2007 M15 review and no mention of Audyssey.  In fact there's no ARC of any kind - totally manual.  The 1st gen NAD M15 has NO ARC : the "HD2" version has Audysessy Pro + XT : but even if you buy through one of the top dealer price slashers (e.g. Spearit Sound) you're still talking close to $3K - which is nuts and WAY over your budget. The 1st gen NAD M15 also doesn't have DTS-HD MA or DD TruHD, which is even a bigger deal killer.

Muser : do yourself a favor & get that refurbed Marantz SR5008 I linked ESPECIALLY if just for movies and games.  The SR5007 which is essentially identical is available for $50 less.  If you really can't do $450-500 now, then get some darker cables for that super bright Onkyo.  Any used Audioquest junk will do the trick.  You'll save both your & your kid's hearing!   

Hope you don't mind me busting your chops a bit.  Maybe I'm being a bit obnoxious here (I'm sure I am), but I'm justing trying to pass along some advice based on personal experience......I chased the HT / 2 Channel combined system "holy grail" and it doesn't exist anywhere near a reasonable price for us mere mortal.  Best as your doing to have a separate high quality 2 channel rig, throw more money into an EAR, and leave the HT w/ the Parasound and mid range HT receiver w/ analog outputs and the latest specs.

Best of luck!

[Muser]

Jarcher:

Bust away, I'm getting value from your comments.

FWIW, TJN doesn't talk about Audyssey, just that the M15 doesn't do OSD through HDMI. It's the hometheaterreview.com note that mentions Audyssey on the first page - following is the link.

http://hometheaterreview.com/nads-new-m15hd-masters-series-av-preamp/

So, my reluctance to get the Marantz receiver or pre pro is that I do want dialogue intelligibility that I believe the higher quality pre pros may have that the $500 receivers don't. I've spent a pretty penny on the front three speakers in my system and they reveal the quality of the goodies they're matched with. I've been writing for www.postive-feedback.com for about fourteen years (audioMUSINGS for three years before that) and though I won't claim golden ears, my preferences have been formed by hearing some really good stuff (can enjoy it, maybe can't/don't want to afford it). My powered ATCs can sound fabulous and unpleasant, depending on the ancillaries. But for the reported odd behavior of the Cary Cinema stuff, I'd buy a Cinema 12.

An incompletely articulated thread here is that I am willing to accept limited (older) codec specification that comes with the older, but more highly specified (capacitors, transformers, etc.) models because I want their sound quality more than their ability to decode 3D, Atmos or some other codec that doesn't matter to me. It's my thinking that better quality components have an ease to their sound quality that makes listening more relaxing while exceptionally detailed - excellent dialogue intelligibility without tilting up timbre. I turned toward the NAD, rather than an Anthem because I've heard the Anthem is a bit sterile and more "audiophilish" whereas the NAD sounds exceptionally good. BUT, I don't have experience with either, so I simply don't know. Frankly, I will bust my budget if needed to to get a sound I like. Is what I'm after a little more clear? In case it's missing in this note, I appreciate and respect your input, hence the long detailed reply.  No intention to be snobby, just happy with the sound.

Larry

[jarcher]

Hey Larry :

RE: The M15 - yes, the HD model did Audyssey : but "Pro" only which requires a license + the associated gear, which is not worth it.  It's an option I explored with my AV7005 and just wasn't worth it - unless you are going to buy & share then flip.  Amazing that w/ a $3K processor they didn't include the regular consumer Audyssey XT because they didn't want to pay the licensing fee.  But I guess they assumed it was a unit for the ultra high end installer market.

Problem is that even an H15HD is probably gonna go for $1500-$2K on the used market.

I went through what your going through trying to focus on sound quality over bells & whistles and even bought a bunch of last generation boutique pre-pro's and compared them to upper end mass market.  There's a thread here on AC where I recapped my experiments :

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=109135.0

My conclusion : the boutique used last generation pre-pro's were either WORSE on sound quality or the improvement was not significant enough to merit the drawbacks in older technology. I did not try an NAD master reference series, but did try Krell and Anthem.

Another thing I fought and ultimately concluded I was wrong about was automated room correction as a non critical bell & whistle.  I thought this was a secondary consideration, but ended up being very important. A 5.1 system - even more so w/ 7.1 to 11.2! - is a complex beast and really the main job of a pre-pro aside from being an AV switcher is to decode multichannel digital audio and apply the necessary digital signal processing for room correction. Just the decoding process of DTS-HD MA can take up most of the processing power.  With so many speakers in the mix - even when from the same manufacturer and supposedly timbre matched - getting everything to sound seamless in the usual home environment (i.e. not sound engineered for optimal theater sound) is a complex task.  Ask much as I fought it - the HT geeks at AVS forum are right : ARC is a critical function for HT and can really dial in the sound in a way that none or manual adjustments are just not adequate. 

With that said : without having tried it, ATMOS may not be that super important to a good HT audio experience vs DTS-HD MA, but DTS-HD MA + something like Audyssey XT or better yet XT32, is essential for HT & games.

As for Marantz vs NAD / Anthem etc.  Yes, Anthem is a bit more sterile / audiophilish vs the warmer NAD, though not as bad as Integra (worst), Krell, and some others.  It is primarily made for HT though vs music.  Marantz is definitely "good enough" - it's the choice of Kal Rubinson & Michael Fremer of Stereophile / S&V for their reference AV systems (I respect Rubinson more in this category).  It's particularly good on vocal intelligibility, with a lot of darker & indie movies this day w/ a lot of mumbling, that's becoming more important.  I use a Magnepan center channel & intelligibility has definitely not been a problem - and I suspect ATCs the affect will be similar.

In closing - if I was a richer man I'd like a NAD M15HD2 or Cary processor - probably the best two out there - but even with a dedicated home theater room, I just can't justify the price premium vs the Marantz AV7005 / 7007 / 8003's at a fraction of the cost.  And from there the Marantz SR receivers are even better value offering +80% of those pre-pro models at even less cost (often half again).

With Pre-Pro's you pay a ridiculous premium for the the high end boutique company processors.  Frankly they shouldn't even be in that market : it takes a major company such as D&M holdings (Marantz / Denon / etc) with huge economies of scale pushing thousands and thousands of units to afford the R&D necessary to make a competitively priced pre-pro.  W/ the boutique co's you may get a better analog back-end, but the more important digital front end will be yesterday's tech.  And that digital part is really what you need. 

And lastly, unfortunately if you think the loudness wars and lack of audiophile SQ on 2 channel music is bad : it's even worst w/ HT & games.  So you don't even get the theoretical advantages of a better analog section w/ the boutique Pre-Pro's because most (though not all) source material is so compromised. 

It all sadly ads up to not spending a tremendous amount on the pre-pro end - particularly from something that'll be obsolete in a few years and worth 1/5 of it's original price - and which you will be chaining / updating every 5 years tops.

The only other alternative is to get one of the very few high quality all analog multichannel pre's, such as the old McCormack MAP1 or Parasound P7 and use the multichannel analog out from a flagship blu ray like your Oppo.  But the you lose the ARC - which to me is a deal breaker.

Sorry for the lengthy message : but just trying to paint out the whole scenario at least as I encountered it.  To me it's too bad you can't just get an external HT decoder w/ ARC that you could add to an analog multichannel pre such that as that unit is outdated you could replace just it (or firmware upgrade as much as possible).  But then of course the HT  industry wouldn't have all those new receiver / pre-pro boxes to sell every model year w/ one or two marginal tech upgrades.

Jon

[Muser]

Jon:

Again, thanks for your thoughtful and thorough reply. Buried in the rest of what I previously wrote, room correction is necessary, so we're together there. I prefer HDMI so I can avoid having to pick up multiple remotes to switch sources. The amps in my speakers are also balanced as is my 2 channel preamp, so having balanced connectors, even if they're "fake" is ideal for me.
I also read your thread and appreciate the work you did to reach your conclusions. Writing reviews is a pain that's largely unappreciated by readers - so it goes.

While I can get the argument of a receiver, it still brings additionally unneeded extra heat to the other components, even if the amplifiers aren't working. I already have a five channel Parasound boiling away along with a modded QSC RMX 2450 for my subs. I am not going to add more heat to a part of the room that's already warm. Having read your travails, I'm more inclined to give Marantz's 7005 and 8003 pre-pro s  a listen. I am very off put that they are such visual behemoths filled with features designed for video zombies. I was hoping to have less real estate occupied by something of a secondary interest. My concern about the Marantz gear is that, like my Onkyo 885(b), it will be a combination of warm and soft, causing obscured dialogue. But it appears that was not your take.

So, an older Marantz Pre Pro like the 7005 or the 8003 can be had at or near my used target price. I now have to reconcile myself to having a massive box on my rack. Harder than it sounds.

[jarcher]

I'd get the AV7005, which averages around 5 for sale per month on Ebay at around $650.  The 8003 will cost you a bit more and give you less : i.e. HDMI 1.3 vs 1.4 (even if you don't plan to do 3D), as well as Audyssey MultiEq vs XT in the AV7005 (a much bigger deal).  They'd have you believe the 8003 is more audiophile, but it's just some fancy extra brass hardware. 

The Marantz HT SS amps have a weak bottom end, but the AV7005 seems fine w/ my admittedly dynamic Krell Showcase 7 amp.  I don't think I'd characterize the Marantz AV sound as "warm" - it's just not bright and harsh like modern Onkyo / Integra and much of the mass market.  Let's just call it more "musical" - i.e. smoother - but plenty clear.  Lastly, since most of the annoying lights - which BTW can be totally turned off from the remote - are hidden behind the lower door - very little light invasion.  Marantz is the lowest on the bling factor.  Size-wise its about standard height & depth for AV receivers.  Honestly eventually you won't notice it's there.

With the remaining $350 in your $1K budget I'd get some Wireworld Oasis XLR's : very neutral with a wide and deep soundstage.  Excellent for clarity w/ out excessive brightness.  If your interested, PM me and I can point you to a source where you can get for below list.  It's what I use for all 7 channels w/ my AV 7005 / Krell combo.  Or you can buy my Series 6 & I can upgrade to the new Series 7 - 

[britenancy]

NAD 15 V1 will beat All of the AVRs that listed in this thread so far.
I have NAD M15 and i've been tempting to upgrade to the ones in the 2k$ ranges with HD decoders but i could not convince myself to do that. I auditioned those and none with the 2k price range would be able beat the NAD M15 in terms of Built quality and Sound quality.

My system:
Mythos STS
Theta Dreadnaught 1
NAD 15
DMP-BD500 (note: this one has 7.1 analog out but its sound (which is very very good ) is nothing compared to the NAD M15 sound )