[nickspicks]

Hey folks...

i've got a ton of people (hi fi people, no less) telling me that the new line of ES sony digital recievers (sonys digital power drive amplification) are downright stunning in their two channel playback prowess, as well as the onboard DACs.
I was looking to check out the PS Audio HCA2 digital amp, and that is how this topic came to be.  "I should do myself a favor and listen to one of these before I drop for anything else" is how it was put to me by someone whos ears I trust as gold.  His opinion is almost like a "reference opinion", in my book.


are they that good?
I dont need 7.1 , but for the money, the 170wpc 5000es model intrigues me (under a grand new).
consumer junk?
if you say yes, I want to hear your story about how you actualy listened to it and are not just going by the "if its in crutchfield..." motto.


i'm considering picking one up and checking it out for a while before deciding to keep it.  I'm wondering if it will have the corn i need to drive my VR4s.

I must admit, i do fantasize about a Von Schwekeirt HT system w/the VR1s in the rear.

[jswallac]

Not sure I can directly answer this, but I have some indirect data on the XXXXES models.  I currently own a Sony AVD-S50ES (digital amp with combined DVD/SACD) that I use in my HT setup.  It is really very good for a both music and HT, better than any analog receiver I have heard.  I believe it is one generation older than the digital amps in the XXXXES receivers.  I have also owned a Panasonic XR45 that, in my opinion, is a lot better for music.  The reason I have the Sony and not the Panny is WAF.  The Sony is very easy to use and matches the Sony Grand Wega we own.  If it was for my 2-channel room, the Panny would win out.  But neither of these receivers compares to my entry level Jolida 102B integrated tube amp.  With easy to drive speakers (Meadowlark Kestrel2) the tube amp is so much more pleasant to listen to.  Now if you want ease of use (remote, no warm up, etc.) plus the ability to do multi-channel, go with the Panny.  If you want good 2-channel, I vote for a nice 2 channel tube amp.  Just my 2 cents as many will no doubt disagree.

[nickspicks]

two channel is my main concern....but I sometimes think about going for a nice HT system.

I like to keep things simple.  an integrated amp would be my first choice, and im pondering a Manley Stingray to give tubes a try, but am concerned as to its ability to drive my monsterous VR4's in a large room.  
My listening volumes are in the 75 > 90db range, and I very occasionaly crank it up to concert volumes...but not often enough to justify holding out for more power.

I am also considering a Krell KAV 300i integrated, which would no question have all the power I need, but I hear it only sounds really good when its being played loud.
the exact opposite of the stingray.

the big sony reciever seemed like a nice match....maybe...
and if I ever were to sell my VR4s, I'd run out and get a maggie HT system, which i'm sure the Sony would drive pretty well at 170wpc...though i dont know how this would drive a difficult load like plannar speakers.  i'm all about the research...1/2 the fun of working w/the upgrade bug.

[lcrim]

nick:
The Sony digital receivers have gotten terrible buzz on this site. The Panasonic digital receivers and recently inexpensive devices which utilize Tripath digital chips have been very hot around here.
I have had a Sony STR-DA3000ES in my HT system for about nine months. It has a Toshiba SD-3950 DVD player connected via coax with a  bybee.  The other source is a Samsung SIR-TS360 direcTV HDTV receiver.  The entire system is digital.  The front speakers are Sonus Faber Concertino Homes,  Sonus Faber Solo Home center and the Adire Audio Rava sub.  I have Polk bipole/dipole surrounds.
I liked the Sony 3000 bcause it was only $700 @ Oade Bros.(Sony internet dealer) and it had the digital clarity and detail and has great slam.  It has an IEC recepticle so the addition of a PS Audio  Power chord was easy.  The bybee cleans the grain out of the treble.  It has decent speaker terminals as opposed to the other digital receivers in the price range.
I also have a Decware SET based system. The Sony is somewhat dry sounding in comparison to the Zen but so is almost anything else I have ever heard.  For movie sound tracks, the  headroom provided by the Sony is awesome.   I am so consumer brainwashed that I keep thinking about adding a SET to my HT and selling the present system but your post may  change my thinking.
Hope this helps.

[nickspicks]

yea, Doug is an online friend of mine, and has been really pushing the Sony ES digital recievers on a lot of folks as "amazing sound for the money" and not consumer crap.

i'm torn.
I've got a great, what I consider reference, system.  Yet here I am looking to change things around.  I'm even pondering a downgrade to a "high value" system and paying some bills.

money sucks.
As Dylan put it best, "money doesn't talk, it swears"

[kendrid]

I had the 3000ES vs a modded Cayin TA30 and I thought that that Cayin barely outperformed the 3000ES.  The Cayin has received rave reviews so that should say something.

The early digital ES models had hissing issues.  They are supposedly fixed now.

I tried a S50ES next to the 3000ES and I found the S50 to be very bright and harsh.  I also thought that an unmodded Panny XR45 was harsh (so harsh I could not listen to it).

I was using ACI Sapphire speakers for all of my comparisons.

[gary]

I had the 70ES, and I thought the sound was good in some ways, i.e. detail and tight bass, but lacking in others. I also thought it was somewhat harsh and clinical, and just didn't have the magic of the Cayin TA-30 I compared it to.

Just the other day I got a JVC RX-F10S though, and I'm afraid the Cayin isn't going to fare so well against it.

Gary

[nickspicks]

its only the 2000, 3000, 5000 and 9000ES models that use this "digital drive" amplification.  they also upsample and convert all PCM signals (from digital inputs) to DSD before going through its multiple DACs (which is sums the output of)...if I understand this correctly.

I've ordered my stingray already, but i'm going to audition the 5000es once it arrives.

[azryan]

its only the 2000, 3000, 5000 and 9000ES models that use this "digital drive" amplification.-

Sorry, you're wrong.

The 70ES gary mentioned also uses Sony's S-Master chips.

I owned the 2000ES. I returned it after over a month and I even got it for nearly half price through a guy who worked at the store I got it at.

It sounded great in many ways but had some huge problems that I couldn't stand it.

Super high noise floor and (though kinda random) some stabbing harshness on the highs.

The connections on the back are just horrible. Sony calling these their 'ES' line is a joke.

I do believe if they were to get their act together and work this all out they'll probably be some really outstanding stuff.... but then everything that sucks would be great if what sucks about it gets fixed right?

I'm using the Panasonic XR45 now which uses the Equibit digital chips. It was modded by Bolder Cable though and IMO needed that mod to be called 'high end'.

Ended up costing about twice what the Sony cost and have been very happy with it for many months now.

[nickspicks]

Sorry, you're wrong.

The 70ES gary mentioned also uses Sony's S-Master chips.

ok, enlighten me.
what is the S-Master chip...and what does it have to do w/Sony's proprietary digital amplification?  Is that a part of the electronics involved?  AFAIK, the only models using this "digital drive" is the str-da2/3/5/9000es. I'm sure other Sony products share similar technology, but these are unique.

Let me quote Doug Oade from his forum:

I had a chance to do some serious listening to some digital amps. I find the new Sony line up to be the best by far. They sound so good in a show room setting, I decided to take one home for a real test drive. I am thinking this level of performance is a result of a 64 bit data path and the use of Sony's own digital drive ICs. They use a new approach to level adjustment that presents the full length word to the output stage at all times. No computations are used to adjust level, so no digital grain or loss of resolution occurs. The 3000ES and 5000ES are even capable of driving reference quality speakers, they are that good. While the Panasonic receiver is good, it is hard and digital sounding when compared to the Sony or a high end analog amp, almost MP3 like in it's dynamic contrast, lacking LF weight and authority. HF detail is so very clear and present without the aggressive character of the lower cost TI based amps, this may be their second most striking characteristic, right behind their ability to create an image. As a PCM digital amp, the Sony is going to be very hard to beat. It's SACD performance is not as impressive as it does not have a digital input for SACD, but for PCM, it is simply amazing. The STR-DA9000ES will support an SACD digital input from Sony's new flagship player, the SCD-XA9000ES. I have yet to hear this >$7000.00 combo, but cannot wait ! The STR-DA2/3/5000ES deliver a soundstage that is huge, with very fine localization and depth. They truly sound like a high end setup, even on very revealing speakers. The music is very much 'in the room' with you, very present, like a fine tube amp with the depth of tubes as well. It also has the control and extension of a solid state amp, everything is so very well controlled that the sense of realism is startling. The Sony ES designs reveal a level of subtle detail simply not audible in any other sub 1500.00 receiver I have heard. Listen to the PCM layer of the new Dark Side of the Moon reissue thru a Sony ES model. The vocals that are typically buried in the mix are heard with breathtaking clarity in a very 3 dimensional soundstage. The foot steps on track 3 are impressive, you not only get the familiar left to right movement, but very specific front to back placement as well. The soundstage is so deep and wide with morphing layers of sound, it is a real treat and most likely the very best most have heard this fine recording do. Take this one with you for a demo along with your favorite audience recordings. Be forewarned, a reference quality system can be brutally honest, so take several live CDRs as you may find out things about your current favorites you did not know ! The Bob Dylan reissue from Sony is also a very nice set of recordings to re experience with much improved sound. Blonde on Blonde as an SACD is every bit as good as the LP. 'All I really want to do' from the bootleg series is priceless. It is a bit raw but is a live to two track with enough real ambient information to put you back into the Philharmonic Concert Hall in 1964. Unlike the Panasonic receiver designs the new Sony MOSFET digital output stage can handle a 4 ohm load, making it capable of driving difficult planar speakers. While it is true even discounted the Sony ES amps are more pricey, their superior sound and 5 year warranty should help offset the painful effect of spending more money ! If you want to breath new life into your music collection, give these new digital designs a test drive, you will be glad you did....Doug

----------end quote--------------

so, its these amps that i'm curious about.

[BenF]

I was also interested in the Sony machines. I tried the C70ES all-in-one and I didn't like it. I have come to find out that it modulated redbook besides! I also tried it from a Sony SCD555ES. See threads in the Bolder forum. It didn't sound right to my ears. The Sonys have not taken off in the market, but I do not have the ability to take a 5000ES home and compare it, so my comments are restricted to the C70ES. I also understand that the current C700ES series uses the old S-Master chips not the S-Master Pros, like the receivers, FYI.

Instead I ended up with an XR45. I do not hear the high end harshness that some complain of, and I can hear a 19K carrier tone on the FM, so my hearing does go high. I think the sound of a component is based on what a person likes, and sometimes, while people say they want to recreate live sound, they really don't. Live music is fatiguing after a while. Some combinations of instruments on certain notes can be very irritating. I like the "accuracy" I think the XR45 brings. I would love to get it modded, but the $ aren't available .

I would also note that the forum post quoted is from December 2003. I have not seen an increase in Sony ES lovers on forums. Perhaps it is as good as Doug says, but perhaps that is not true in a broad enough section of the market. I think Sony missed what the market place wanted with their ES series. Why no choice of silver or black, for example. And if the sound is so good, why are not more audiophiles and test sites reviewing them positively?

I recommend trying a few different amps before committing. The digital amp revolution is just beginning. I opted to go cheap, but good, to start.

All the best,

Ben

[Brad]

I still like the sound of my Sony 700ES

The ergonomics are horrible - both the front panel and the remote.
The front panel isn't readable from more than about a foot away.

It is an excellent DVD player and a good amp though.

I haven't tried it driving anything but the Omegas which are high efficiency anyway.  I was more than a little disappointed to find out it used the old S-master chip instead of the S-master Pro as Sony advertised.

[lcrim]

Here is a link to a Sony marketing pdf that happens to contain the clearest explanation of Sony's implementation of digital amplification that I have found.
Remember , its a marketing document not a technical white paper and it was originally posted on this board by brunob.

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/STRDA3000ES_TWP.pdf

hope this helps

[azryan]

nickspicks,

"-ok, enlighten me.
what is the S-Master chip...and what does it have to do w/Sony's proprietary digital amplification?-"

It IS Sony's digital amp chips.

It's used in their ES line AND also used in all-in-one smaller recs. they make.
That's actually where they were used first.

Sony's qulity is crap for what they charge IMO and ruins what is otherwise a really good sounding technology.

If they get their act together and make their ES line worthy of that 'ES' name (like make 'em as good as Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Marantz) they'll kick ass.

As of now they in some ways kick ass and other suck ass.

"-AFAIK, the only models using this "digital drive" is the str-da2/3/5/9000es.-"

That's why I corrected you in my last post.

"-I'm sure other Sony products share similar technology, but these are unique. -"

Well it's the same exact technology so in that way... no, their ES line is not unique.

Read the links people have posted too.

From your Oade Bros. quote....

"-Unlike the Panasonic receiver designs the new Sony MOSFET digital output stage can handle a 4 ohm load, making it capable of driving difficult planar speakers.-"

The Panny has been tested on 4 Ohm speakers and it runs them fine.  Some guys ran it to ear bleeding levels on 4 Ohms vmps rm-40's on this forum.

My rear speakers are 4 Ohms too and I run them full range w/ the Panny w/ no probs.

Oh... and only the ES9000 rec. uses MOSFETs I'm pretty sure. That model is FAR more costly than the other ES models and also uses an additional toroid transformer making it pretty unique vs. the rest of the ES's.

I owned the ES2000 and heard the ES9000 at the CES in vegas before it was released to the public (in the Polk Audio room).

This is a similar method to Sony's own 1-bit DSD SACD processing -which is not without controversy too.
If they can fix the flaws and make it sound great that'd be cool, but I'd wait or go with the very long refined Panny's using the PCM equibit amp chips which were developed over a decade ago.

[nickspicks]

well...I certainly appreciate the schoolin'

Maybe its the PCM > DSD upsampling that makes these amps sound so good.
but, i'll let my ears be the judge once I get to hear one.

Thanks for taking the time to tell me that info.

[azryan]

Check out my edited post above. I added some stuff while you replied.

Note Sony's S-Master digital amps are DSD-like, but they're not DSD. They are similar in that it converts to a 1-bit method.

This 1-bit thing though causes a lot of noise above audible range. In a digital amp the processing is WAY above audible.

My rec. had a HUGE noise floor. I never heard anything so bad. Despite this it sounded really good in most ways but also had stabbing highs often.

The Panny didn't do that at all and has NO noise floor. Not just low... NONE. And at any volume.

I'm just not convinced 1-bit (like Sharp's doing too) is the best way to go. The real deep technical engineering is beyond me though.

If I understood at that, that'd be my job! hehe

[BrunoB]

well...I certainly appreciate the schoolin'

Maybe its the PCM > DSD upsampling that makes these amps sound so good.
but, i'll let my ears be the judge once I get to hear one.

.

There are so many contradictory reports on digital amps in this forum. Different speakers, speaker cable, room,  break-in time, musical taste, ears, ...  . I am afraid you'll have to buy one or may be two or three to find the right one.

Two recurrent commonalities:
- very good bass
- need long break in time

Two families:
 - analog input based switching amp (e.g. Tripath, PS audio, ...)
 - powerDAC - (e.g. Sharp, Tact, Sony, Panny, ... )

Bruno