PAS 12x4 tube

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mjock3

PAS 12x4 tube
« on: 19 May 2013, 11:02 pm »
I have a variation of a PAS 3, I am getting some hum in it. Wondering if the 12x4 can cause that. The reason for the question is when I put it in my B&K tube tester I get no needle response.

Thanks for any help,

Mark

Mark Korda

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Re: PAS 12x4 tube
« Reply #1 on: 19 May 2013, 11:09 pm »
Hi Mark, I'm no expert but maybe you could ask a music store to lend you one to see if that solves your problem. If it does, buy it. Tell them if it hums still will they take it back....Mark Korda

FullRangeMan

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Re: PAS 12x4 tube
« Reply #2 on: 19 May 2013, 11:25 pm »
Seems noises and microphonics dont appear in VU tube testers, only in osciloscopes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13n1VCR6UXw

P.S.: Just adding that poor connection on sockets insert plate current instability and noise issues.
« Last Edit: 20 May 2013, 01:16 am by FULLRANGEMAN »

ltr317

Re: PAS 12x4 tube
« Reply #3 on: 20 May 2013, 09:59 pm »
I have a variation of a PAS 3, I am getting some hum in it. Wondering if the 12x4 can cause that. The reason for the question is when I put it in my B&K tube tester I get no needle response.

Thanks for any help,

Mark

Do you mean when you check for emissions on the B&K tester?  If the needle doesn't move, the tube is either dead or it's not making proper contact in the socket.  The B&K doesn't check for noise though.  The hum could be from a tube or grounding/shielding issue. 

mjock3

Re: PAS 12x4 tube
« Reply #4 on: 20 May 2013, 10:35 pm »
Thanks for the replies. I will have to do some more swapping and see where I land.

Mark

Lefty052347

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Re: PAS 12x4 tube
« Reply #5 on: 20 May 2013, 10:56 pm »
Just a FYI.

We had a batch of Westinghouse 12x4 made in Taiwan that clipped early during the negative voltage swing.  I would avoid that brand and country of origin.

Regards,
Dean

mjock3

Re: PAS 12x4 tube
« Reply #6 on: 21 May 2013, 03:51 am »
Thanks Lefty!

avahifi

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Re: PAS 12x4 tube
« Reply #7 on: 21 May 2013, 12:20 pm »
The 12X4 is a rectifier tube.  In general it will either work or not  If it fails you will get no music at all from the preamp, not music with hum..

Note that if it fails, the signal tubes (12AX7) may still light up as the 12V heater supply is provided by a diode bridge or selenium rectifier, not the 12X4 tube which provides the high voltage signal supply only.

If your 12X4 tube is allowing music from the preamp it most likely is not the cause of your hum.

Give me a call at 661-330-9871 for more help.

Frank Van Alstine

mjock3

Re: PAS 12x4 tube
« Reply #8 on: 21 May 2013, 07:10 pm »
Thanks a bunch Frank, I will try to give you a call tomorrow.

Mark

Mark Korda

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Re: PAS 12x4 tube
« Reply #9 on: 21 May 2013, 09:51 pm »
   Hi Frank, The Dyna PAS 2,3,3x, have  a 12x4 rectifier tube. They all have a selenium rectifier too. Is it common for a preamp to have 2 ways of rectification? Is the selenium rectifier there for more elimination of the DC ripple or the 2 big capacitors it houses? Thanks.....Mark Korda.

avahifi

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Re: PAS 12x4 tube
« Reply #10 on: 22 May 2013, 01:31 am »
The PAS preamps, as do almost all vacuum tube preamps, need two separate rectifiers (and two separate secondary transformer voltages) because at least two completely different DC voltages are required.  They require a high voltage DC supply to run the signal part of the tubes and a low voltage to run the tube heaters (the part that glows red hot).  Some tube units just use low voltage AC to run the tube heaters, but a DC supply for this is usually quieter.

At the time the PAS was designed, a tube rectifier was needed for the high voltage DC supply, while the low voltage heater supply could be done with the selenium rectifier (a predecessor to useful diodes).

The selenium rectifier changes the AC from the transformer to DC, the big axial lead capacitors in the bracket below smooth out the rippling DC from the selenium rectifier to a more uniform DC for the heater circuits.

By the way, one failing of the PAS selenium rectifier is that it becomes resistive with age.  Thus its normal plus and minus 12V DC will droop down to 10V or less as the years go by.  This partially turns off the tubes, causing them to conduct less, and the sound will get pretty muddy.  A quick fix is to install a pair of 1N4004 diodes or similar in parallel with the selenium rectifier and replace the old paper electrolytics with new ones.  Note that the new capacitors will be much smaller than the originals (modern electronic progress at work) so fitting the parts in place will be a challenge.

You are welcome to call me to get more advice on smoothing these pretty rough details above.

Frank

Mark Korda

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Re: PAS 12x4 tube
« Reply #11 on: 22 May 2013, 05:49 am »
MJock3,  that explanation to my question about your question by Frank VanAlstine should be written in a book, hint hint Frank.  MJock, Frank has the uncanny ability to relate complex things in a simpler way so a dope like me can understand it. ...Mark K...P.S. thanks Frank for the free education