[geofstro]

Is XXHighEnd buggy? Well perhaps not, as long as it is used "as intended". The trouble is it is not always so easy for everyone to understand what exactly is intended.

The more I think about it the more I feel XXHighEnd is one hell of a sophisticated piece of software for one man to have developed. Too much really. So full kudos to Peter for achieving what he has with XXHighEnd.

When I think about it most software that is developed by one or two people is relatively simple. Look at HQPlayer, JPlay or even Audirvana as examples. Pure Music by Channel D is actually quite complex; but I don't know how many people are involved in that. J R Media is very complex and also very well designed and I imagine there are teams of people behind that.

They say given enough time a bunch of Chimpanzees could hammer out Shakespeare's sonnets. Well it wouldn't take very long for a bunch of chimps to break XXHighEnd.

I'm a bit of a chimp myself at times. To give an example, to increase and decrease volume when in "unattended mode" in XXHighEnd you need to hold the "alt" key then "u" for up, "d" for down. Logical enough! I wanted to change volume continuously though, so I held down "alt" and kept my finger on the "u" key at the same time, hoping it would move the volume continuously up. This didn't seem to work, so I kept hitting "alt" + "u" in rapid succession. Boy did I get into trouble 

The screen kept filling up with countless error boxes. I had to force quit, then when I relaunched XXHighEnd it was well and truly broken. I had to trash it and re-install a fresh copy, going through the initiation process again and re-entering all my settings. I should really have reported this to Peter; but frankly I was so relieved to get everything back working again, that I just listened to music for the rest of the evening and forgot about it. Could I have known I wasn't using XXHighEnd "as intended"?

At least I now know, to just hit "alt" + "u" or "d" once, there's a slight delay, the volume changes by 1.5db, then you can change it again. Patience is a virtue.

Normally a software house large enough to develop a program as sophisticated as XXHighEnd would probably employ a team of professional chimps to stress test the software before it is even released to beta testers and this sort of problem would, hopefully, be picked up at the in house testing stage. We can't expect one man to do all of this!

[PeterSt]

Peter,
Welcome to AC.  Please make sure you read the guidelines for manufacturers
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42858.0

Thank you for the welcome and the warning Ted. I never saw that. Read the rules but must have missed this.
Anyway, I held back of further posting because the picture below tells me something is pending. Well, since last Saturday. It doesn't look something is going to happen ?
Maybe the reason I gave for wanting to be a participant don't comply ("want to post in threads about my own products").

Regards,
Peter

[audiodave33]

My background is in hardware and software and what Peter has done is nothing short of amazing.  I read his XXHighEnd board frequently and the things being discussed and how they affect sound quality boggle my mind - memory management, device drivers, optimizing your PC's, OS version and patches, hard drive types, etc, etc.  The amount of research and experimentation that Peter and his followers have done is really inspiring.  There simply is no other place on the web that I am aware of that has this level of discussion and research going on.

By Peter targeting a PC has made his project hundreds of times more complicated because everyone PC is slightly different  - various versions of the OS with different patches, different hardware (memory, sound cards, motherboard), other software running, etc all effecting the sound quality and the operation of XXHighEnd.  Peter is supporting all his customers and I bet many of the problems are related specifically to there PC.  Think, Microsoft has tens of thousands of people for development, QA and support.

As Peter develops his sophisticated algorithms he discovers variables that effect the sound quality.  He doesn't hide them by picking a predefined value.  He gives you a knob to adjust it as every PC system is different as mentioned above, not to mention listening tastes and synergy with the rest of your audio system.

So with all this in mind, I think you need to have the right head-set when considering XXHighEnd.  It is a single individual writing complex software, building a DAC, building a PC, experimenting, documenting, sharing his ideas within his community and supporting all of this in the name of creating the best possible digitial sound.  It is not a company trying to build consumer based software and hardware for the masses. 

To me XXHighEnd is for those who don't mind being an being an early adopter of technology or being on the cutting edge for the chance to get amazing sound quality from there system.  The UI will not have been developed by professional usability experts, you may have more knobs to play with, improvements will be more frequent, there isn't a huge roll-out process, etc, etc.  As Peter stated he is a DIY with a goal of making the best possible digital sound.  From what people have said he may have accomplished this. 

[PeterSt]

Dave, thanks for the kind words; quite inspiring.
Not that I know which "Dave" you are, with too many Daves and Davids around.

[PeterSt]

Okay, I'm probably disobaying some rule by posting anyway, but that status of "pending" remains forever. So, apologies in advance ...

BTW, Welcome Peter! Your input here will be very much appreciated by all, I'm sure.

So let's hope for that.

If Audirvana on the Mac side will someday be able to support the full 768khz rate and upsample to that rate using the iZotope upsampling filter, there will potentially be a lot more happy Mac, NOS1 users.

They may not be able to take full advantage of the "ultimate" sound quality provided by XXHighEnd; but how far will they be away from it? At this point that's a question which is impossible to answer. In any case they should get significantly better SQ than is available to them at the moment.

That depends, but this is not necessarily true;
iZotope can't do what my (propriatary) Arc Prediction does and I was only able to dial in settings which comes close the best (using the analyser and all).
It is quite important to understand that actually the "filter" in (or "for") the DAC makes the sound. So, all normal DACs contain these filters (these days often adjustable) and when we consider the D/A process as something which is neutral for sound, only the digital filtering remains "coloring" the sound.
(of course there's more like good PSU's, low noise, low jitter etc.)
Now, the fun with something like the NOS1 is that it doesn't contain any of these filters (just completely nothing) and together with its further design it is allowed to call it neutral (sounds like blah, but think 6uV of output noise and 200fs of net RMS jitter). Now :

Filtering is a 100% necessity and in this case it is to be done outboard; That's just the concept and anticipates anything you or me can think of for the better filtering. Can be done in real time (like Audirvana and actually most of the Mac players by now) or can be done offline (upsample the tracks with some good product like iZotope). But in any event : the filtering determines the sound for 100% in this (NOS1) case. Keep in mind please, this anticipates the remainder of the DAC to be the same "100%" neutral.

On a side note : when you'd allow the NOS1 to play with any presets on the filtering of any of the Mac players, sound is horrible. Ok, all is relative, but to me it would be the correct description. Standing waves all over the place and buzzing everywhere. Accuracy = 0. Geofstro, I think you can easily try it; doesn't matter which program you use, but I think you know Audirvana so take that. Do not apply my given iZotope settings - just use a preset.
So ... this is part of the concept as well - you can very clearly hear what the filters so. They make or kill te music.

Back to the suggestion ... I could dial in iZotope settings which are close to Arc Prediction, but not more than that. Sound is totally acceptable and let's say it makes worth the DAC 3K. But, use Arc Prediction and now name your price. What shall we say ? 20K ? And well, as long as it outperforms anything against any price, what it's worth is up to you (I am not suggestig anything, just trying to give a valid answer to the question).
So, while it's tough to say something like "on a Mac SQ is xx% less" it is quite doable to transfer it into money and say "on a Mac the DAC is worth 17K less".

Here too, all is relative and possibly comparisons like this have become moot to begin with. For example, when we use the new Phase Alignment from XXHighend, I would personally "state" that my amps seem to be new and worth 20K more (and you may know I really said so). Thus, per "yesterday" my amps increased in value vastly, BUT only when I use XXHighEnd. Still from (my stupid) math should follow that the DAC is worth more now 37K when used on a PC instead of a Mac.

Geofstro, I hope the above makes some sense to you while I know it is one of your problems for the good cause in determining "what would it matter when we'd leave out a dial here and there to the convenience of my customers". So, I turned it into a $$ comparison as how it should work out at the customer's site. That we still should do all we can to make it as convenient as possible can't be denied. That it needs some sparring like you are handing me that right now is also clear to me. I like to thank you for that.

Peter


PS: I tried to find a backdoor solution via adjusting the source code of iZotope which legally is an option. However, those crazies ask 10K USD per year for that ...

[PeterSt]

Peter, I believe you occasionally play files from a network share yourself or have in the past. Just how much of a hit does SQ take when you do this? I'm assuming no WiFi here. The PC running XXHighEnd is connected via ethernet. If you tried to put it in percentage terms does the SQ drop to 80%, 90%. What would you estimate in approximate terms?

Similar question as the other, but let me try to grab the opportunity to look at this one from another angle;
Btw, I never play files from a network share, and might you think that within itself this causes SQ degradation ... maybe, but that's what the "Playback Drive" is for.

If we look at the Minimized OS feature (for others : this eliminates all from the operating system which is unrelated to audio) - it clearly improves the sound. Depending on other factors I'd call it "up to infinity". No commercial story, but just trying to put things black and white for you so we can work from there as a base. So, a few things which at first seem unrelated, but should end with having you conclude "ah, like that".

Outside the Activated version of XXHighEnd, the (same) processes are eliminated just the same. But, in aftermath. So, boot into Normal OS Mode, set everything to shut down and press play. What do you hear (in comparison to booting into Minimzed OS Mode) ?
Notice that in both cases the same processes end up still running.

Minimized OS *had* to be made by me in an enforced fashion before a first NOS1-USB could go out. Notice that its predecessor did not have any problems with the "performance" of the OS + XXHighEnd as it was, but the USB version was so much better that now suddenly all anomalies from anywhere could be heard and the sound was WORSE. Had to revamp my amplifiers as well, or at least I examined them because it still wouldn't work out (while all measured OK on the DAC side) and found "noise" in there which I could eliminate. Only *then* it worked.
So, DAC got better, sound got worse without further precautions suddenly needed.

Then Phase Alignment came about (remember, that 20K amp improvement I talked about). Wow this wow that.
But now try it outside of Minimized OS. Totally unlistenable. So, software got better, but sound got worse. Why ? because some stupid services keep on running.


Do you have your answer now ?
Anyway, I can't give it. But keeping on the LAN is keeping on quite a pile of these processes/services. Don't use Phase Alignment (for your own reasons) and your answer will be different from when you do use that. Or, use a Medea+ and possibly you won't hear a difference anywhere. Or more complex : use a Medea+ over USB and you can't use Phase Alignment (at this moment) because it can't work with 24 bit protocols. And so now you can use XXHighEnd in Normal OS Mode because you wouldn't know the difference anyway.
Or again different : use XXHE in Demo Mode plus a NOS1 and send it back right away because it sounds like sh*t.

So problem in answering these within itself valid questions is that all has been consistently built up piece by piece over time, thousands of ears contributed to that and tearing out one of the options may have devistating results. May have, because all depends on your current reference, and, if *you* are able to replace yourself in the customer's situation and predict what will happen overthere ... I can't.
But what we can do is offer tinkering about how system configurations could change without sacrifcing SQ and that is how something like Bluetooth comes about. Or a PC with sheer infinite USB3 hdd storage. So, both examples about avoiding the LAN (and NAS etc.).

HTH
Peter

[PeterSt]

IF someone (me) got off track because I got a wild hair from reading the next best computer setup is it easy to get back to where it was?  Meaning, is there a config file that is saved and it's as easy as loading the previous config file?  Or is it a bunch of knobs and buttons that are very hard to find that can take a while?

The former. So yes, all the settings can be saved in "Settings Presets" (and infinite number of them) and they can be loaded back when needed. This counts for the SQ parameters separately from the user interface settings.

Also, is the PC that you sell, completely silent?  My PC and HD's (AIFF) will be in the listening room.

If we can assume less than 19dBA completely silent (I do), then yes. Btw, that's quite a sport in such an audio (small) case and a 12 core (hyperthreaded) processor running at 4GHz.
And before we ask, cpu usage at 32/768 is a virtual 0% anyway, so it's not about that at all (that this machine is built up like this).

Best regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Last one :

Normally a software house large enough to develop a program as sophisticated as XXHighEnd would probably employ a team of professional chimps to stress test the software before it is even released to beta testers and this sort of problem would, hopefully, be picked up at the in house testing stage. We can't expect one man to do all of this!

Well, that is what I figured too. But this is exactly why your Alt-u example should have been posted in the (Phasure) forum which is what it's there for. So yes, sometimes I'm begging people to report bugs so I can know them and solve them.
Thus you are all beta testers ?

Uhm, maybe and to some extend, yes. I mean, the software *is* still in beta, right ?
haha
Peter

[geofstro]

An excellent post audiodave33. It really explains well what Peter has achieved. The only point I would take issue with is reference to the "masses". I don't think there are any "masses" in my discussion in the sense that everyone is in search of the best possible sound quality and considering the various means to achieve it.  I didn't mean to sound overly critical in my last post. Just wanted to point out to folks what they'd be getting into. Yes indeed anyone using XXHighEnd is effectively a beta tester and this is part of the adventure. There has not been what I would call a "stable version".

I would like to see a simplified streamlined version of XXHighEnd with all the sound quality features; but with a cleaned up interface and I have made a number of suggestions to Peter via private mail on this.

I would also like to see the same or something similar on the Mac.

At the moment it is possible to drag files from another media player such as JR Media Center to the XXHighEnd playlist area. This way you effectively manage your library with JR or whatever. For people who prefer to do this, why not have a simplified version with all those other file handling features stripped out?

Again, these are only ideas for having a clean, simplified version of XXHighEnd which is easier for more people to use, without compromising sound quality or allowing the user to choose whether to take a small hit on SQ for convenience.

It's an interesting subject in itself. I wonder how people on this forum feel about this? If you had to choose between maximum sound quality without the convenience or some compromise in SQ with all the convenience of navigating with an iPad or similar, which would you choose? Personally, I currently mix up the two. I go with the more convenient path when I just want to chill out.

…and Peter I think you should consider opening a manufacturers dedicated forum here. I know it would involve more work though and you already seem to be overloaded.

[jtwrace]

Just wanted to point out to folks what they'd be getting into. Yes indeed anyone using XXHighEnd is effectively a beta tester and this is part of the adventure. There has not been what I would call a "stable version".

Yes, me too.   

I would like to see a simplified streamlined version of XXHighEnd with all the sound quality features; but with a cleaned up interface and I have made a number of suggestions to Peter via private mail on this.

What are the odds of this happening.   

[geofstro]

What are the odds of this happening.

That all depends on Peter. As I see it the "crown jewels" of XXHigh End are the Arc Predict upsampler/interpolator which is unique to the industry and entirely his own creation. In Addition there is the "true memory player" along with all the tweaking parameters that go along with both of these.

Phase alignment DSP can now be added to these.

I imagine these could be licensed out to other software developers who could build different programs around them with some nice user friendly interfaces and library management.

Perhaps the "crown jewels" could be protected within software frameworks or libraries and simply called as services within the third party developers program, without Peter's intellectual property being exposed to the third party developer.

Alternatively perhaps volunteer programmers could be called on to build user friendly players for both Mac and Windows around these "crown jewels".

The result could be multiple programs which would easily be worth twice as much as Peter charges for XXHighEnd and he could just collect the license fees or "royalties".

[audiodave33]

geofstro, my comment about XXHighend not meant for the masses was a general comment for people who might think XXHighend is easily usable by a computer novice; not as a response to your post.

i also think you have great suggestions; however I think Peter has to do with what makes him happiest.  He strikes me as a person who is thrilled by discovery and inventing.  I'll go out on a limb and say dealing with lawyers and licensing would not thrill him.

right now i am pleased someone like peter is actually doing R&D to create Arc Prediction, true memory player and Phase Alignment DSP as i would much rather have this than convenience.  the hope is his success will drive the industry and his competitors to be better - give us both amazing sound quality and user experience.  of course if it happens, the price will be 2-3 times minimum higher

geofstro, perhaps you and Peter could team up and be the Jobs and Wozinak of digital playback.

cheers,
dave

[geofstro]

my comment about XXHighend not meant for the masses was a general comment for people who might think XXHighend is easily usable by a computer novice; not as a response to your post.

OK, thanks and understood.

I know I sound quite harsh in my criticisms of XXHighEnd at times. It's only because I care so much about the sound quality Peter has achieved and the sound quality of digital audio in general.

right now i am pleased someone like peter is actually doing R&D to create Arc Prediction, true memory player and Phase Alignment DSP

So am I and I don't see any reason why this couldn't continue with Peter using XXHighEnd as a test bed for new ideas, while at the same time having those technologies incorporated into other software players on all platforms.

geofstro, perhaps you and Peter could team up and be the Jobs and Wozinak of digital playback.

  I won't speculate on what Steve Jobs would have thought about XXHighEnd.

Seriously though, of course I'm always happy to do what I can to help. I know that Peter is a competent businessman. I do believe though that keeping XXHighEnd as the only means to achieve the full potential of the NOS1 will limit sales of the NOS1. That limitation would be a bad business decision in the long run. Deploying Arc Prediction, true memory player and Phase Alignment DSP to other platforms and allowing developers to build new players around these technologies, would be a very good business decision in my view.

[glory]

I own a Phasure NOS1 USB and I'm getting very impressive results with it used in combination with XXHighEnd. If you get XXHighEnd set up just right on your PC, you can achieve a rich/full bodied sound, with detail/High-Resolution at the same time. Too often these two qualities seem to be mutually exclusive. It all hangs on the ability to draw out the best from CD by upsampling standard CD rips all the way up to 705.6 or 768khz using his "Arc Predict" upsampling/interpolation filter.

Unfortunately this "Arc Predict" filter is only available as part of XXHighEnd along with numerous settings that allow you to tweak the sound in an almost infinite number of ways until you achieve nirvana. That sound is also dependent on turning off various windows services which can hurt sound quality if they're running. WiFi is considered one major culprit. Fortunately these services can easily be turned off from within XXHighEnd and restarted again at another time when needed. This is about the most convenient option within XXHighEnd.

Peter is always innovating to improve SQ and his latest feature, Phase Alignment takes the SQ even further, as long as you follow the advised precautions.

SQ can also depend on exactly which version of Windows you're running and which updates you've applied. In short, XXHighEnd really puts the inconvenience back into digital.

Unfortunately XXHighEnd is singularly the most frustrating piece of software it has ever been my displeasure to use 

Put one foot wrong and it'll have you tearing your hair out, as you'll be confronted with endless error messages which are of little help.

Although there are highly cryptic, essay length tooltips which you won't often manage to read before they disappear.

Peter is very forthcoming with advice on his forum; but unfortunately he is often patronizing to his users as a browse through some of the posts will clearly demonstrate. Personally, however good XXHighEnd and The NOS1 DAC are, I don't see any excuse for this behavior towards his customers.

There is currently no way to get the full potential out of the NOS1 other than by using XXHighEnd. It will only work at above 384khz for upsampling with XXHighEnd and the all important "Arc Predict" filter is only available in there.

If "Arc Predict" is really his own unique invention, along with some of the other features of XXHighEnd, I think it should be licensed out so it could be incorporated into user friendly and competently designed software such as J R Media Center and Peter would make a fortune.  Someone else on CA has suggested this.

In the time I've had the NOS1 it has performed faultlessly; but then again I don't think it really needs to do that much apart from convert digital at the sample rate it receives to analog. There are no upsampling or oversampling filters or filters of any kind within it, apparently, because it relies on all this being done in software. It seems to be competently designed. Mind you I've also had pretty amazing results using XXHighEnd with the Altmann Attraction DAC connected to the PC via a USB to s/pdiff converter upsampling to 176.4 or 192 for the Altmann.

XXHighEnd is a major PIA to use; but I'm still soldiering on for now because of the SQ.

I've tried to be as objective as possible.

Hope it helps!

Geoff

Geoff,

Still own this Dac? I have the Lamp L5 Dac from Poland and would like to buy/try this Dac.

Gary