How good do the Alphas sound?

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coredvs

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How good do the Alphas sound?
« on: 20 Jul 2004, 10:01 pm »
I'm seriously considering building Alpha's or some other top end design.  I was also considering Wilson MAXX clones or VMPS RM40's or whatever is out there that just sounds awesome.   Basically I want awesome.  I have some BAT VK60 mono tube amps, a Wadia transport and BAT pre.  

I've read many of the posts but I never get an answer or hint at what I wonder about most....

        How do the Alpha's compare with top end speakers?
 
I just don't see how an array of relatively low end drivers can sound better than Wilson Maxx's which use Focal Audiom drivers on the low end and Scan Speak/Focal MTM configuration which are pretty high dollar components not to mention the esoteric box Wilson puts them in.  

I figure I can build MAXX clones for about 3K using the same drivers and an active network to handle the X-over.

I am going to hear the VMPS speakers this weekend since they are relatively close to me.

I just don't know and need some advice.  I sure wish someone in the Bay Area would let me listen to their Alpha's.  Can I offer and incentive?

-Phil

mgalusha

How good do the Alphas sound?
« Reply #1 on: 20 Jul 2004, 10:27 pm »
Phil,

I don't know if this will help but a friend of mine posted this about his Alpha's...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=10969.msg95548#95548&highlight=#95548

Danny Richie

How good do the Alphas sound?
« Reply #2 on: 20 Jul 2004, 11:01 pm »
I'll only touch on this point here and let the subjective questions be answered by our customers.

Quote
I just don't see how an array of relatively low end drivers can sound better than


The Alpha LS does not use low end drivers.

The Neo 8 panels have many advantages over other types of drivers and are made by a well known and respected company in the industry for many years.

The woofers are not made by a big name company but they are ideal for this application and sound great.

If you want to hear some Alpha LS's in your area just look down a few more threads here and you will see that there are some in your area.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=10811

In fact, I think there are a couple of pairs in your area.

Thanks for your post.

scooter

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How good do the Alphas sound?
« Reply #3 on: 21 Jul 2004, 02:46 am »
Below is a review where at the end he compares the Alpha to the other high end speakers he has heard including the Meridian 8K's.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/71360.html

coredvs

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How good do the Alphas sound?
« Reply #4 on: 21 Jul 2004, 05:03 pm »
Thanks, this is the kind of information that helps.  

Danny I was not knocking your design.  In fact I am very intrigued by the Alpha's and think they look superb.  Right now this is my favorite.  I don't think the RM40's will work with my tubes.  I read a few posts that suggest they need a good solid state amp.  I suppose my main reason for wanting to listen to the RM40's is to get the "array experience" since I am only familiar with point source type speakers.  


-Phil

azryan

How good do the Alphas sound?
« Reply #5 on: 21 Jul 2004, 07:50 pm »
The 40's don't image or project sound like a line array. You'll find I think that due to a lot of the midrange coming from the top 12" woofer that they image much higher than the Alphas (which are larger, and as large as the RMX's).

They're a WMMTMMW array. Much diff. from the Alphas true line array layout.

I still own the Newform Research 645's that the Alphas replaced.

They use 4 ~$145 7" (often called world class) Scan Speak 8545's in the 1000Hz on down range which is very close to the range the 18 6" Alpha woofers are run and the Alpha line was very very clearly better in speed, transparency, realism, etc... but tonally it sounds very similar -both being thick paper cones.

The Newforms IMO had some quirks I wanted fixed but otherwise I think beat a LOT of other high end speaker themselves.

The Alphas IMO beat the Newforms in everyway. Some subtle, other NOT subtle.

Woofer for woofer -and I've had them side by side... the Scan Speak looks like it's a better driver, but in the speakers it's not even close.

The woofer in the Newforms don't mate perfectly with their 45" 3 section quasi-ribbon whereas the Alphas are 100% seamless between their planar and woofers so that easily beats the Newforms.

The Scan Speak 8545 is used on LOTS of super costly high end incl. every version of the Wilson WATT/puppy.

I've heard the Sonus Faber Cremonas which use Scan Speak's best woofers (the only step above the 8545's and I think what the Wilson MAXX use?) the Revelators and IMO you just can't at all do what a line of woofers can do no matter how incredible the one or two woofers used are.

Heard Martin Logan's Prodigys on down and they almost always sounded ragged on the highs and always sounded weak in the dynamics and poor imaging.

Avantguarde horns, Quad's, Magnepan, Revel Salons, vmps, etc... lots of very high end well know names and VERY diff. designs, and the only speakers I thought sounded as dynamic, realistic, effortless were the Epiphanies Danny also designed.

There's a lot of diff. ways to make a speaker of course and lots of diff. 'sounds' but attributes like soundstage, dynamics, accurate freq resp./tonaility are things all these great speakers I think are trying to do.

Maybe it'd be helpful to you if you take it point by point what you like in this or that other speaker?

Some people know a LOT about what's inside those other speakers and can maybe relate specific diff. vs. the Alphas to you.

The effi. of the Alphas means you can use about any amp you want and takes little power to drive them loud.

When driven loud you can put your face right up to each little woofer and can hardly see it move at all vs. a speaker using large bass woofers where you can easily see them moving from across the room.

What this means for music for example... This Chinese drum track which in real life is uses HUGE drums and plays DEEP.

On the Alphas is sounds and images 'real' IMO. On even systems that sound outstanding in many ways... it sounds like subwoofer drivers playing really good quality bass. That's VERY impressive... but just not the same as sounding 'real'.

Once broken in the Alphas can image VERY sharp while still allowing a very wide soundstage. This puts so much air between instruments and makes orchestras sound as powerful, dynamic, deep and HUGE as they are in real life, etc...

The Alphas can handle a huge amount of power too so that combined with needing so little to drive them means you'll never come close to driving them hard or getting real distortion like you will get from any 'world class' regarded cones/planars/ribbons/domes, etc... driven hard.

The driver sections are level matched so there's no padding on either section to match eachother like you will almost always find on most other speakers. All the more pure signal path.

It's shocking to see the x-overs of so many SUPER costly speakers. A real shame too.

The speed and detail of 16 neo planars is astounding IMO.

Crossing over to the woofers playing the full midrange and bass gives you full impact in those ranges and playing those sub 12' long freq. I think they sound as fast as any of the planar speakers I've heard -none of which give you that realisitic impact untill they cross to bass woofers.

The diff. is very clear if you get a chance to hear it IMO.

I hate to RAVE about anything but they're just such an outstanding speaker and untouchable price IMO.

'If' those mega buck systems were kits... they'd all be FAR cheaper than the store brands so it's good to see you talk about clones or some of them, but I think if you compare the details of the assorted designs you'll see why the Alphas shine like so many have said they do.

It's not exageration or magic or clever advertizing b.s. that explains it. That was one of the best things about the design IMO. It's clear and easy to see and explain why it does what it does and why most other speakers just can't do what it can.

I could go on and on but I'll leave it at that for now.

Red Dragon Audio

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How good do the Alphas sound?
« Reply #6 on: 21 Jul 2004, 09:08 pm »
Not to beat a dead horse but regarding drivers and their respective quality is a tricky beast.


Let's say you used all Scan Speak 5.5" Revelator drivers (their very best speaker) which are indeed great drivers and perform extremely well.

If you had 18 of them that would cost about  $3000 just for the woofers now you have to get the crossover parts, ribbons and enclosure.  You are quickly approaching $5000 and probably more.  The thing is, they probably out perform the Alpha drivers if they were to go head to head in say a basic 2-way or MTM speaker but...

the Alpha LS kit takes advantage of the fact that when you have a driver that is a good design (not the very best like the revelator) you actually minimize it's weaknesses.  The driver in the Alpha kits is actually very good looking from what I can tell and I am sure it tests well as Danny says...no it isn't a balls out design like the revelator but it doesn't need to be and here is why (which AZRYAN stated already):

The cones are hardly moving to produce any given SPL level which means they are operating in a LINEAR FASHION!  In other words they producing far, far lower levels of distortion and therefore will sound fantastic.  Since they are operating well within their own limits they will reproduce the input signal with extream accuracy and should never sound harsh or fatiging.  Plus they are very sensitive (not sure how much but estimates are around 93-96dB) which means they need even less power to produce sound.  Their line array nature also means the sound level doesn't drop off nearly as fast as a typical design.  A normal speaker spl drops off 6dB with every doubling of distance...the line array only drops off 3dB.  Now that makes for one great speaker...but don't take my word for it...I have never listened to them but I guess I should just save up and quit my yapping about them.

This is the key to great sound; no distortion (though it isn't the only factor but a huge part of it).


I don't own either the VMPS speakers or the GR Alphas but from a design standpoint the Alphas are the better speaker in my opinion (having heard excellent line array designs I am very familiar with their sound).


If you can go over to the fellow's houses who have alphas I would highly recommend it...and maybe bring some of your own gear if you can.


Danny do I get a discount for vouching for speakers I don't own yet? :D

I will one day have a pair of line arrays from Danny, but we don't have room in our little 1-bedroom apartment yet and the house we were looking to buy failed miserably during the inspection...so we're back to square one as far as buying a home (maybe I should base it on if it has a proper listening room or not). :mrgreen:

azryan

How good do the Alphas sound?
« Reply #7 on: 21 Jul 2004, 10:06 pm »
“-..but don't take my word for it...I have never listened to them but I guess I should just save up and quit my yapping about them.-“

That line cracked me up 'heavystarch'! hehe

You sure talk about them like you have heard them.  I think that’s simply because you understand ‘how’ they work.
That’s the kinda research I did about assorted designs before choosing the Alphas (having never heard them myself and there being far less reviews/impressions of them at that time which made me somewhat nervous about what I’d hear).

To follow-up the effi. thing...

The Alphas are rated ~93db effi. but sitting at ~12-14' (which is a real good distance for them in a larger room and wide large soundstage) they’ll be as loud as ~99db point source speaker.

That’s about 10 times or more effi. than fairly common ~86-89ish db speakers which means the others will take ~10 times more power to hit the same levels as the Alphas.

Now ‘real world’ says the Alphas are using a Watt or two most of the time, and the other speaker is using 10-20Watts.
Most people would say those are BOTH real low amounts of power so no big deal either way, but...

Hit peaks where you quickly need 10-100 times more power (and peaks like that ARE recorded in the most realistic music) and that’s ~10-200W or so for the Alphas but 200-4,000W for the other speaker!

You’ll have a tough time actually getting the all of that power to the speakers (power limits, compression) and the speakers will distort or flat out not be able to handle that kinda power if you can hit ‘em with it.

Oh... and any seat height or standing (unless you’re in the NBA) will keep the Alphas imaging the same. Other designs will shift tonally, and/or soundstage, etc...

‘Who listens standing up?’ is an often heard counterpoint to this. IMO, it’s a valid point but...

1). Some designs shift even in diff. seated heights of a few inches. My Newform’s are one example with the tall ribbon on top of small floor woofer cabinet being at about seated height. Vmps are another example having heard the 30's, 40' and X’s and having talked with RM-2 and 626R owners.

2). I know I personally stand up to do this or that quite often and I just like it better when that sound stays the same. That’s how it works in real life performances and it keeps that illusion from breaking IMO.

They do a perfect reproduction of out of phase clips in Q-Sound recordings too -where certain sounds seem like they're coming from surrounds just slightly behind you.

I've never heard a speaker that could do this as well. Most fail totally, but many just sound like it's well outside the front soundstage rather than seeming to come from a surround speaker.

I've fooled everyone in my house into turning to look at my surround speakers when they heard the effect.

Red Dragon Audio

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How good do the Alphas sound?
« Reply #8 on: 21 Jul 2004, 10:34 pm »
AZ,

Glad I can bring a chuckle or two your way.

Your follow up to sensitivity was spot on!  That is something so often overlooked but is so very important.  Have you ever used a Radio Shack SPL meter to check what your average listening levels usually are?  That would be interesting to know.  You could then roughly calculate what kind of power you are using etc...maybe you have and I just forgot the post (I read quite a bit but forget about as much too).

I am familiar with line array sound (dali megalines I listened to extensively at the HE2003 show and the epiphany speakers at T.H.E. Show this year)

You are right about doing your research on speaker designs.  I think it is critical to understand the design premise behind a speaker to help in terms of setup, toe-in, etc.

For example the Vandersteen 3As are one of my favorite speakers but they are quite senstive to speaker placement, toe-in, tilt back and ear height.  Once that is all settled they are sweet speakers but they don't do what line arrays do.

I just haven't ponied up for alphas yet as I don't really have the room right now for alphas. (about 16' x 12' which is really our living room and my wife certainly won't have that going on in there).  I am hoping we just build a new house and do a suspended slab in the garage so I can I have the 400-600sqft under it...that would be so nice).

Once I do, the de capos will be on their merry way out the door
and I will plunk down the cash for a DIY set of alphas.  (do you hear me danny?  I'm coming to Texas with $2000 for yal one of these days... ya hear!?  "yeah yeah heavy, I hear you" - danny).

azryan

How good do the Alphas sound?
« Reply #9 on: 22 Jul 2004, 08:17 pm »
"- You could then roughly calculate what kind of power you are using etc..-"

The Pannie I use has been measured to output one Watt at -20db and most music I listen to is about -35 (undynamic rock) to -20 (very dynamic classical). Typical is about -25db. That's pretty loud on most anything.
And I usually have it at -15 for nearly all DVD's which sounds as loud as any movie theater I've been to.

I've never bought a Rat Shack SPL meter for about 10 diff. reasons.

wshuff

How good do the Alphas sound?
« Reply #10 on: 24 Jul 2004, 02:02 pm »
You might want to keep your eyes on this thread:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=11753