Another Front End Rumble at Big B's...prologue and results

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #20 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 06:30 pm »

PLMONROE,

I honestly don't remember taking note of that match up, per se. 'Gentleman' jgubman, do you?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #21 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 06:48 pm »

Quote from: jgubman

ChairGuy, I wondered myself if the bass could be improved by some putty adjustment. There was really a pretty substantial difference in the bass with the two DACs.

Definitely a possibility, as one of Steve''s comments to me was the power of the dynamics. Much of that comes from bass impact. Tellingly, I sent my Power Base (dedicated power supply) in to be modded with all the rest, and Steve said after modding the transport and DAC, it simply was not needed. It had, and I quote, 'bone-crushing' bass. So, we have a distinct possibility there on that one.

A few other things, and again please note I am not trying to re-arange the facts of yesterday (merely lend some intriguing possibilites), but I may not have been a good candidate to show of the attractive nature of my front end. I have been very tired recently (3 month old, extremely busy business now - which I am very thankful for) and, normally, I tend not to be very competitive by nature. When tired, I am less so and, like all of us, inclined to mistakes and oversights when fatigued.

I forgot all my CD's that I wanted to hear for my edification (not that the music played wasn't helpful; but they were all new to me), for instance.

I am also a little green at this stuff...not having gone to many. I had two other (possibly better, but certainly different and more expensive in cost) choices of power cables I could have brought (PS Audio Statement and BPT L-9 Litz). I brought my LAT AC-2...and frankly, I've found some problems of late with 'steaminess' or tending twords shrillness with them. If I had thought to bring other power cables, maybe we may have gotten a better sense of weight, separation of voices and instruments and the like that were lacking yesterday with the Sony/MSB. Even the over-achieving Asylum DIYCable might've inserted some differing persepctive into the proceedings.

Keep in mind, EVERYTHING in that room is familiar to Brian/VMPS and every wire and component choice and tweek has been optimized, synergistically, to match what his keen ears (better than mine to be sure!) hears as better music. A couple extra choices of power cables, so important in digital gear, could have been revelatory.

I doubt we'll repeat the exercise again (it ain't fun lugging those weights around and I don't want them to break in transit), but the power cable could've been a very important one missed by an overtired and overtaxed ChairGuy.

Anyhow, it was wonderful and the Krell/Wadia is still king. I hope the next challenger has an equally good system and has a more qualified pilot than I.

I have such a much less revelatory room, amplification, speakers that my front end is plenty good for me and I am abundantly pleased, that even captained by a greenie, it sailed well yesterday. Nobodies ears fried...as with previous contenders to the title.

Sa-dono · « **Reply #22 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 10:25 pm »

You guys have certainly brought up one problem with the VMPS speakers...their adjustability. This can be a blessing and a curse at the same time. The system is already optimized for a particular source, so it is more unlikely for another to shine in comparison. This is one reason why it would be preferable to re-tune the speakers for the new components. People have claimed this is a simple task, and that Big B is capable of doing this very quickly, but this still is rarely shown. Tyson and Pez seem to be the only ones that re-tune the speakers for comparisons.

Also, it is a shame that Jim did not bring the McCormack instead. I imagine it would be a much more capable preamp for the comparison.

Certain conclusions from the comparison do not surprise me, but that is for another time. Hope you guys all had a good time!

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #23 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 10:38 pm »

I thought you were coming to the shootout, what happened?

If the two sources had been closer I would have retuned the speakers, but the Krell/Wadia was too far ahead to make that worthwhile.

Cuts used in the comparison:

Mozart K622 with Michaelson (clarinet)
"Duo Guitars Play Surf Music"
"Trains to Taung" --Paul Hamner Trio
"Flower Drum Song" 2002 revival

Jim Romeyn can supply additional comment and comparisons.

Sa-dono · « **Reply #24 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 11:32 pm »

Unfortunately I had other business to attend to.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #25 on:** 2 Aug 2004, 12:21 am »

Quote from: Sa-dono

Unfortunately I had other business to attend to.

What, like sleep?

Missed ya, man.....sometime we'll meet.

audioengr · « **Reply #26 on:** 2 Aug 2004, 03:56 pm »

Next time you do one of these, I would suggest some piano music. This I have found is the most difficult to get right. I use track 4 of "Gene Harris The Concord Years" a lot (Summertime). It has some hard, fast piano attack that breaks-up on most DAC's. Excellent jazz recording with prodigious string bass from Ray Brown as well.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #27 on:** 2 Aug 2004, 04:32 pm »

I agree. The Paul Hamner disc has the best recorded piano I know, and it is very prominent in the mix.

lifewithmusic · « **Reply #28 on:** 3 Aug 2004, 07:53 am »

I've noticed that many digital front ends, particularly DACs take 2 or 3 days after being pluged into stabalize. Before that they sound aweful, or at least much below their prime and peak. I assume that the "challenger" as moved to the AC in Brian's system, and was not plugged in for more than a few minutes before the comparison started. I wonder if that fact doesn't invalidate the whole shoot out . . . Comments anyone?

Marbles · « **Reply #29 on:** 3 Aug 2004, 01:14 pm »

Quote from: lifewithmusic

I've noticed that many digital front ends, particularly DACs take 2 or 3 days after being pluged into stabalize. Before that they sound aweful, or at least much below their prime and peak. I assume that the "challenger" as moved to the AC in Brian's system, and was not plugged in for more than a few minutes before the comparison started. I wonder if that fact doesn't invalidate the whole shoot out . . . Comments anyone?

I doubt it would cause so much problem for his DAC as to invalidate anything. Certainly they could get the charecter of the DAC within minutes of plug in.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #30 on:** 4 Aug 2004, 05:08 am »

Quote from: lifewithmusic

I've noticed that many digital front ends, particularly DACs take 2 or 3 days after being pluged into stabalize. Before that they sound aweful, or at least much below their prime and peak. I assume that the "challenger" as moved to the AC in Brian's system, and was not plugged in for more than a few minutes before the comparison started. I wonder if that fact doesn't invalidate the whole shoot out . . . Comments anyone?

We were there for a bit over 2 hours...it was warmed up in my estimation. I've never personally noticed the DAC or Power Base needing more than 20 minites to sound pretty much itself. I've owned both for nearly 3 years now and they have been unplugged before...several times.

Not that I wouldn't love using that excuse as one to duck under....

James Romeyn · « **Reply #31 on:** 4 Aug 2004, 02:40 pm »

I doubt John or John or Brian care, but just for the record: we tried my Sunfire pre-pro as a gain attenuator for Chair Guy's DAC. None of us seemed thrilled with the performance. Unfortunately, because I am still new to the preamp, & not as familiar with its operation as I'd like to be, I did not know at the time that the signal was passed through ADC & DAC sections in the preamp.

I since learned we could have kept the signal in the pure analog domain by using two of the 9.1ch inputs, commonly used for high-def analog sources. I am unsure, but switching to a "pure direct" mode may have also accomplished the same result even with the input we used.

The high-def pure analog inputs require the gain attenuation circuits to be comprised of digital voltage control of the output stage amplifiers of the Sunfire pre-pro.

Sa-dono · « **Reply #32 on:** 5 Aug 2004, 11:34 pm »

Quote from: RibbonSpeakers.net

I doubt John or John or Brian care, but just for the record: we tried my Sunfire pre-pro as a gain attenuator for Chair Guy's DAC. None of us seemed thrilled with the performance. Unfortunately, because I am still new to the preamp, & not as familiar with its operation as I'd like to be, I did not know at the time that the signal was passed through ADC & DAC sections in the preamp.

I since learned we could have kept the signal in the pure analog domain by using two of the 9.1ch inputs, commonly used for high-def analog sources. I am unsure, but switching to a "pure direct" mode may have also accomplished the same result even with the input we used.

The high-def pure analog inputs require the gain attenuation circuits to be comprised of digital voltage control of the output stage amplifiers of the Sunfire pre-pro.

Hi Jim,

I'm curious what made you decide to bring the Sunfire pre/pro, instead of the McCormack? Also, have you had a chance to compare the two with each other? TIA!

James Romeyn · « **Reply #33 on:** 6 Aug 2004, 03:48 am »

The MAP was necessary at home to maintain a functioning system while I was gone. I have not ABd the Sunfire & MAP. The Pioneer DV-563A digital output into the Sunfire DAC sounds far better (the Mrs. agrees) vs. the 563 analog outputs into the MAP preamp.

Sunfire's latest best True Subwoofer EQ Signature just arrived. Hopefully it will be installed soon & a report will follow.

I was sitting off to the right far corner. I intend to go back to Brian's with the Sunfire for a brief comparison in the sweet spot with my own software. Regarding our shootout, I'd take John's rig in a heartbeat. It was very satisfying in every way, & only in a direct AB did the KW show its advantage.