Two sub mounted on Desk as OB

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this_is_vv

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Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« on: 3 Oct 2012, 04:47 am »
So i sit on my desk and still me being a little stubborn wanted bass to come out from speakers and that bring some LIVE/LIFE out of these....

and i thought about putting two holes in the stand and putting OB woofer inside it...thinking around 8inch woofers...





any ideas which speakers would sound best for this kinda appication....

V

Guy 13

Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #1 on: 3 Oct 2012, 06:53 am »
So i sit on my desk and still me being a little stubborn wanted bass to come out from speakers and that bring some LIVE/LIFE out of these....

and i thought about putting two holes in the stand and putting OB woofer inside it...thinking around 8inch woofers...





any ideas which speakers would sound best for this kinda appication....

V

Hi vv and all Audio Circle members.

Not easy to understand what you mean with your basic sketch.

Please try to post a better sketch with more details,
so we can try to help you.

I am sure there are lots of Audio Circle members that would like to help you,
but you have also to help us.

Guy 13


this_is_vv

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Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #2 on: 3 Oct 2012, 02:40 pm »
Hi vv and all Audio Circle members.

Not easy to understand what you mean with your basic sketch.

Please try to post a better sketch with more details,
so we can try to help you.

I am sure there are lots of Audio Circle members that would like to help you,
but you have also to help us.

Guy 13

apologies,

I will create a better pictures...if it helps it is a top view of the table where the pc is located. i will create a new one and post by tonight...

V

this_is_vv

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Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #3 on: 4 Oct 2012, 04:07 am »
This is the google sketch i coud come up with...my desktop speakers are there and i want to put two subwoofers in the holes as shown...

can some one tell me if its possible...any benefits from it...good bad....any recomended driver till 8 inch.....


V


studiotech

Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #4 on: 4 Oct 2012, 05:16 am »
Wow, that's a HUGE desk! 

 :lol:

Your idea is growing on me now that I see the drawing.  I think acoustically it could work, but what about space on your desk, no problem?  And spilled drinks?  Items dropped on the cone?  I'm assuming you will at least use metal grills for protection.  You may also find that the vibration on the desktop is bothersome.

What about these:

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/hi-vi-m8a-8-alloy-cone-woofer/

At least a spill would not ruin them.  One piece aluminum cone and rubber surround, so wipe them off and good as new.  I'd also mount them with a foam or rubber gasket.

JLM

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Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #5 on: 4 Oct 2012, 08:48 am »
What's the needed crossover frequency to the woofers?  Bass notes are huge (1130 ft divided by the frequency), so no advantage in being so close to satellite speakers.  If I had two woofers (hopefully with Qt of 0.7 - 1.0 for O.B. bass), I'd just build a pair of H frames.  Set up one near desk and the other out of phase at the far end of the room to reduce bass standing wave effects.  (All rooms act like a bath tub with large waves slapping back and forth, that at the right frequencies double up or cancel out.)

+1 to above concerns (spills, desk vibrations, loss of desk space).  If you feel driven to try this desk/baffle idea, mount to side panels to reduce spills/desk space issues. 

(Frankly looks like built-in snack bowls.  :))

this_is_vv

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Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #6 on: 4 Oct 2012, 02:16 pm »
Wow, that's a HUGE desk! 

 :lol:

Your idea is growing on me now that I see the drawing.  I think acoustically it could work, but what about space on your desk, no problem?  And spilled drinks?  Items dropped on the cone?  I'm assuming you will at least use metal grills for protection.  You may also find that the vibration on the desktop is bothersome.

What about these:

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/hi-vi-m8a-8-alloy-cone-woofer/

At least a spill would not ruin them.  One piece aluminum cone and rubber surround, so wipe them off and good as new.  I'd also mount them with a foam or rubber gasket.

Metal grill will be used this is kinda my personal desk and dont eat anything on it or drink on it...so spilling chances awe very few....


Space on the desk i might put another sketch tonite exactly how i think how to put the woofer exactly in it...

My Main concern is does this will work acoustically...the reason i am not big on subwoofer on side is imagine this...

u r sitting around on a high chair the high and mids are coming from the desktop speaker and now the bass is coming something from side..which is like around 2 feet down from desktop speaker...somehow it is not mending in my head.....

i didnt showed my table exactly as i have a side bracket in here so the desk as such is VERY HEAVY with the stuff on it (a 5 channel amp ,dac, 3 screens etc) so my thinking is vibrations will be contained if there are there....might put some insultaion around it...


this_is_vv

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Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #7 on: 4 Oct 2012, 02:17 pm »
What's the needed crossover frequency to the woofers?  Bass notes are huge (1130 ft divided by the frequency), so no advantage in being so close to satellite speakers.  If I had two woofers (hopefully with Qt of 0.7 - 1.0 for O.B. bass), I'd just build a pair of H frames.  Set up one near desk and the other out of phase at the far end of the room to reduce bass standing wave effects.  (All rooms act like a bath tub with large waves slapping back and forth, that at the right frequencies double up or cancel out.)

+1 to above concerns (spills, desk vibrations, loss of desk space).  If you feel driven to try this desk/baffle idea, mount to side panels to reduce spills/desk space issues. 

(Frankly looks like built-in snack bowls.  :))

My Main concern is does this will work acoustically...the reason i am not big on subwoofer on side is imagine this...

u r sitting around on a high chair the high and mids are coming from the desktop speaker and now the bass is coming something from side..which is like around 2 feet down from desktop speaker...somehow it is not mending in my head.....

Actually that is just a hole i used the google sketch first time so i was not sure what i was drawing....so that is the pic...though your idea of woofer on side pannel is interesting too..

studiotech

Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #8 on: 4 Oct 2012, 10:19 pm »
I'd just build a pair of H frames.  Set up one near desk and the other out of phase at the far end of the room to reduce bass standing wave effects.  (All rooms act like a bath tub with large waves slapping back and forth, that at the right frequencies double up or cancel out.)

I'm not so sure it's as simple as setting the second H frame up just anywhere and setting it out of phase to get the kind of results you're describing...

Can anyone else chime in here with the science?  I think one has to take into account distance and delay settings, no?  And do you really want to remove all bass played between the 2 units or just the frequencies that are being affected by room modes?  If you put any two bass cabinets out of phase and NOT co-located, you will get a hit or miss cancellation OR reinforcement I think...

JohnR

Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #9 on: 5 Oct 2012, 12:38 am »
I'm not so sure it's as simple as setting the second H frame up just anywhere and setting it out of phase to get the kind of results you're describing...

Can anyone else chime in here with the science?  I think one has to take into account distance and delay settings, no?  And do you really want to remove all bass played between the 2 units or just the frequencies that are being affected by room modes?  If you put any two bass cabinets out of phase and NOT co-located, you will get a hit or miss cancellation OR reinforcement I think...

It's an experiment I've been meaning to try. I think there could be some beneficial effect from a DBA/CABS type of arrangement (i.e. with one inverted and delayed) but the dipoles will need to be well out into the room, and also both will need to be pointing along the same axis.

My inclination for a typical desk arrangement would be build a single dipole (H frame etc) and place it to the side, but fairly close by. This should work fairly well as long as it's not required to go above say 120 Hz.

this_is_vv

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Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #10 on: 5 Oct 2012, 03:56 am »
This is the google sketch i coud come up with...my desktop speakers are there and i want to put two subwoofers in the holes as shown...

can some one tell me if its possible...any benefits from it...good bad....any recomended driver till 8 inch.....


V


This nis the beat image i could come up with....now i am looking for some 6-1/2" or 8inch max woofer....each side....

any ideas guys???

V

JLM

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Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #11 on: 5 Oct 2012, 10:31 am »
Again bass waves are huge (30 Hz is roughly 40 feet long) so exact location or what direction they're pointing in relative to speakers matters little/not. 

Yes simple out of phase 2nd/remote sub is not the perfect solution, but the best first guess.  The perfect solution would be similar to AudioKinesis' swam (4 subs carefully positioned throughout the room).  Refer also to Floyd Toole's work, Geddes also can be searched here at AC, the bass circle, etc.  Another simple and rather elegant solution is this:

http://www.spatialcomputer.com/page9/page10/page10.html

I didn't mention the swam or black hole active absorber because it's getting away from the concept and frankly I have a hard time investing that kind of coin in a desk top system.

JohnR

Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #12 on: 5 Oct 2012, 12:52 pm »
Again bass waves are huge (30 Hz is roughly 40 feet long) so exact location or what direction they're pointing in relative to speakers matters little/not. 

If you are referring to open baffle/dipole subs (this is the OB circle), this is incorrect. An open baffle sub has a well-defined directional pattern of radiation, which will make a difference more or less depending on other factors; and location does also make a very significant difference (to all subs), you can see some measurements that show this here:

 http://www.hifizine.com/2012/03/on-dipole-subwoofer-placement/

this_is_vv

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Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #13 on: 6 Oct 2012, 10:10 pm »
any updates on types of woofer receomended...

JLM

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Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #14 on: 6 Oct 2012, 10:52 pm »
If you are referring to open baffle/dipole subs (this is the OB circle), this is incorrect. An open baffle sub has a well-defined directional pattern of radiation, which will make a difference more or less depending on other factors; and location does also make a very significant difference (to all subs), you can see some measurements that show this here:

 http://www.hifizine.com/2012/03/on-dipole-subwoofer-placement/

Yes, I've heard a few dipole/O.B. designs and if you want to get technical, how does a desk top mounted O.B. woofer properly load a room?  Note that standing waves occur in any "small" room (say less than 50,000 cu. ft.) regardless of O.B. design or not.  And a 30 Hz signal is nearly 40 feet long regardless.

studiotech

Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #15 on: 6 Oct 2012, 11:59 pm »
Loading the room doesn't much matter in this case as he is in the extreme near field AND NOT in the dipole cancellation area at 90 deg, so just just about any decent woofer and some EQ and he should be all set.  I still vote for something like my previous recommendation of the Hi Vi M8a.  It's a well made driver for a fair price and a mid level QTS.  I don't like high QTS personally and he's got DSP, so we are not talking a passive system that needs a high Q woofer to have any chance of good bass.  In fact, his head will be so close to the drivers that really, the dipole cancellation will not even be much of an issue with all of that desk surface area.

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/hi-vi-m8a-8-alloy-cone-woofer/

or

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/peerless-sls-830667-8-paper-cone-woofer/

if you prefer paper and a higher Qts of .66  Can't ask for anything better than that right?

or

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=297-446

this one is in stock at PE

or

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1100

Send more picts once you've done it, OK VV?  Sounds like fun.

this_is_vv

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Re: Two sub mounted on Desk as OB
« Reply #16 on: 7 Oct 2012, 04:41 pm »
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=297-446

this one is in stock at PE

or

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1100

Send more picts once you've done it, OK VV?  Sounds like fun.

Thanks for this... Greg, help me on this....if i see specs clearly this itself with my Neo8 is enough....so i can replace this with my SEAS and will get a good bass...instead of make a 3 way... i can use this as 2 way...
ether of one till 1-2K then let Neo8 taking over with some correction...mmight add a neo3 for tops later....

good idea??

V