Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance

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dlaloum

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Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« on: 29 Apr 2012, 08:25 am »
I recently picked up an interesting rare test record:


Denon XG7003 Pickup Test II.

The reason I got this, is I am continuing to look for a way to quantify cartridge performance - and specifically tracking ability....

In the 60's (66) Shure started using their Trackability Index measures.... but it never became a generally used measure.

So how does one compare the abilities of differing cartridges - some of them low compliance on heavy arms, to others that are high compliance on light arms...

Tracking seems to me to be one of the key measures.

Shures TTI indexes used measurements of tracking capability at 200, 2100 and 17k Hz to then work through a set of tables and derive an artificial tracking measure. - Unfortunately all the maths behind the TTI does not seem to have been published....


The Denon test record, measures compliance and mechanical impedance (two sides of the same coin) at a range of frequencies - requiring an oscilloscope.
And provides the necessary formulae, and constants to convert the measured information (minimum VTF for the test tracks) into both compliance (cm/dyne) and Mechanical Impedance measures (dyne.sec/cm).


So I now have the tools with which to measure compliance/impedance at various frequencies (if I was to replicate Shure I could measure at 250Hz, 2kHz, 16kHz).

What I am looking for however is some information / formulae on how to translate mechanical impedance into theoretical tracking ability....

ie: for a give mechanical impedance, what level on record (in cm/s presumably) would that limit tracking ability to?

Looking for any links to the relevant formulae ... (or maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree... that's possible too)

I also have the CBS STR112 test record which has a set of trackability tracks similar to the HFN test record tracks (300Hz in increasing amplitude from +6db to +18db) - but these are limited, due to measuring at only one frequency.

The interesting thing about our remarkably complex styli, is that they behave quite differently at low frequencys, midrange and high frequencies - so you can get quite differing results when you measure all three ... (as Shure did in their TTI) - but the end result is probably a superior way of characterising cartridge performance.

comments? suggestions? Input?

thanks

David

neobop

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #1 on: 29 Apr 2012, 10:28 am »
Hi David,
I think you need a library card at AES.
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/subscribe/

Maybe I linked to this before, but Ortofon might be a good place to start.
http://www.ortofon.com/technology/the-measurement-test-chain

This isn't exactly what your looking for, but you might find it interesting never the less.
http://www.davidreaton.com/pdfs/holman_aes_paper.pdf

I think your best bet would be to get in touch with Jonathan Carr and Van den Hul. Perhaps you could get some questions answered through the company web sites?

Good luck.
neo

neobop

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #2 on: 29 Apr 2012, 03:14 pm »
Now that I think about it, Ortofon publishes VTF, lateral cu, tracking ability (um @ 315 Hz) for all of their carts. The only thing they no longer publish tip mass. You might be able to find it in old brochures at Needle Dr.
http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=73

The relationship between cu, VTF and tracking ability seems almost nonexistent. It depends more on cantilever material, stylus type and tip mass.
http://ortofon.com/products/cartridges/moving-coil/mc-windfeld/mc-windfeld-technical-specifications-

dlaloum

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #3 on: 29 Apr 2012, 09:59 pm »
Thanks Neo,

I have a feeling the missing link between VTF and trackability is in fact mechanical impedance.... trying to find more mathematical models of stylus behaviour....

bye for now

David

neobop

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #4 on: 30 Apr 2012, 12:57 am »
Wouldn't you need to be able to measure things like damping and tip mass? Maybe corrolation of Ortofon data would help. Windfeld tracks at 2.6g yet trackability is 100um. I believe tip mass is .32 Their best trackers are the ones with lowest eff tip mass, regardless of VTF.

For those of us not sure what he's talking about, here's a primer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_impedance

http://www.bksv.com/doc/17-179.pdf

dlaloum

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #5 on: 30 Apr 2012, 02:57 am »
The Denon test disc provides sine wave test tracks at 31,62,125,250,500, 1k,2k, 4k, 8k, 16k Hz

The actual amplitude of each track varies - and they provide the relevant data (and formulae) with which to calculate both the compliance and the mechanical impedance at each frequency...
What you measure (with an oscilloscope) is the lowest VTF at which you can track each frequency.

So the parameters are amplitude (translatable into cm/s, or um), VTF, Frequency,

And what can be calculated from this includes Mechanical Impedance (which I think implies damping), as well as compliance.

The interesting thing will be comparing the ultimate tracking abilities of a cartridge within its range of manufacturer approved VTF's.

So it doesn't really matter whether the nominal VTF is 1.25g (Shure V15V-SAS) or 2g (Ortofon X5-MC) - at their nominal VTF they should have comparable trackability....

I would prefer to find an easy to use combination of measurements that I could then compare - and a means of translation between the differing units used would be really handy!! DIN standard for Trackability is um at 315Hz - which is what Ortofon quote - but doesn't say much for what happens in the critical 10k to 15k sibilance zone....

I started getting back to first principles and working my way through the underlying physics to see whether I am missing an obvious/simple step that would solve my problem...
I think I have a lot more reading to do.

I am almost certain there would be something in the AES library to help, and may actually need to become a member/subscriber.

I thought about calculating tip mass - I have a couple of papers on that topic, and that could probably be worked out (based on primary resonant frequency measurement)- BUT:
The concepts underlying tip mass include a bunch of stuff which also assumes things like vinyl indentation, and the resonant frequency being generated by vinyl indentation combined with stylus shape - which does not agree with the other theory, that the resonance is a cantilever resonance. Only other way of calculating tip mass is to destructively dismantle the stylus and measure the mass of the component parts along with their proportions.... not willing to go down that path!

It seems that the Effective Tip Mass specification as used by Ortofon, is an alternate expression for the primary resonant frequency.... if you go with that theory, you need to have several constants relating to vinyl identation/springiness etc... - I have the formulae, but not the relevant constants.... (may be in some of those AES papers).

I did make the observation that Ortofons best trackers and their lowest ETM appear to coincide - but it is not clear as to why and how the calculations and measurements that lead to those figures are done... (making it hard for me to replicate!)

A number of older articles (60's to 80's) point out that different manufacturers use different methods and assumptions in calculating ETM - making it impossible to compare the resulting specification ( arrrgh!  :evil: )

So the measurements need to be made by going back to physics, decent measurement tools and test tracks.... and I find myself somewhat over my head there!

Interesting nevertheless

bye for now
David

cheap-Jack

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #6 on: 1 May 2012, 02:50 pm »
Hi.
The reason I got this, is I am continuing to look for a way to quantify cartridge performance - and specifically tracking ability....

... a superior way of characterising cartridge performance.

comments? suggestions? Input?



I maybe ignorant of all those technologies you mentioned above. Yet my ears can tell me how music sounds with different phono cartridges. This is the bottom line of all, IME

A silly question to you:  out of curiosity, why you want to know all those specs figures & numbers? You think those numbers will tell you how a phono cartridge sound?  Or are you making yourself a phono cartridge
technical consultant to tell the world how it should track to get better music reproduction?

FYI, I had a full audition of Audio Note of Japan "Ginga" string-driven TT complete with Kondo-312 tonearm (custom-made for AN by SME, UK) & AN IO-M MC cartridge, nett for USD130,000 !!!!!!!

The AN silver-wound MC cartridge nett for USD9,300 alone. Simple standard specs, e.g. O/P 0.12mV (1KHz 5cm/sec), internal impedance: 1R, compliance: 6.0x10-6 cm/Dyne, stylus pressure: 1.5-1.8g. Weight: 11gm.

No stylus mass, mechanical impedance ever stated.

IMO, who care? We are going for the sound, & not the data, right?

c-J

PS: please don't feel offended. My post is aim for those vinly beginners NOT to get scared off by all those phono cartridge technologies.

dlaloum

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #7 on: 2 May 2012, 01:59 am »
I would like to hear what the performer originally intended....

The performance as performed, recorded, checked by the performer then mastered by the engineer and confirmed/verified by the performer.

That is my ultimate goal / idea of perfection in audio.

If the original performance was dreadful - then the end result should sound just as dreadful, and if the original performance was pure genius then that should be reproduced too.

Given that I cannot directly compare via A / B the actual live performance (which in some cases occurred before my birth) with the recording, I am dependent on technical measurements to define, configure, adjust, or select components for my audio system.

I have no control over the recording, mastering and production (pressing) - all that I can ensure is that I take all the necessary steps to ensure that a signal recorded in a certain way, is also reproduced in the same way.

To that end the RIAA, DIN and IEC released a whole bunch of standards... including the speed of rotation of the record, equalisation of the signal, etc...

One could of course play a 33.33rpm record at 38rpm - and many might find this a very pleasant experience - this is of course what many DJ's do with the pitch controls....

But the end result is no longer an attempt to reproduce the original recording, instead it is using the original recording as a component of a new artwork - the new artwork is of course a mashup, or collage if you like - and it might be very fine - but it is no longer the original work.

When you go and listen to something - it may sound good, or it may sound bad... how do you know whether it accurately reflects the original??

If this does not matter to you... and as per the collage - you only care about your personal end result - then stop right here, go no further, why waste your time?

The purely subjective listening approach, will invariably deviate from the "reproduction" goal, and, as the listeners tastes change over time, the systems sound will also change over time, which direction the system goes in will be completely driven by the individual taste of the listener.
And if the listener enjoys the outcome then more strength to him - may he enjoy it to the full.

In my opinion the end result is almost invariably "audio roulette" (somewhat like russian roulette) - pick a component, you like how it sounds, put it into your system, and it will change the sound in a relatively random manner - keep selecting components that randomly alter the system (of course that randomness is only from a specification/measurement and neutrality seeking approach) - end result will of course, from a neutrality seeking approach perspective, be completely random - "audio roulette".

For the rest of it - the technical side, and the search for perfection, is its own and quite seperate hobby, from the hobby of listening to music. - The two are obviously related, but they are quite distinct.

Through measurement and analysis I have come to understand my system far better than I once did (when I used to use the subjective listening approach...).

Changes that were then done in a non random manner - by analysing flaws, and targeting adjustments/variations to resolve them  - have almost invariably been effective.

For example - I placed the TT needle on the TT plynth to use it as a sensor and detect parasitic vibrations, feedback and footfall.... measurement.
Then I started varying the footers, platform an rack - I had many options, as I had been trying to resolve my isolation problem for a long time, and in the process I had purchased various platforms, sorbothane pads, sorbothane domes, rubber pucks, magnetic levitation feet, various spike feet, etc.. etc...

But the random number of possible permutations and combinations of all these different components is simply astronomical. Testing each variation by ear, requires spending an extended amount of time with each configuration (on the order of hours) - to identify differences in differing performance aspects. (tracking impact, high frequency impact, stability of piano notes, bass solidity, imaging, etc...)

Having already spend many months on the exercise with relatively minor improvements, I started measuring... once I had worked out how to measured the desired phenomenon - It then took me a few minutes per configuration to test a whole bunch of them.
I varied each level in my setup (floor interaction/interconnection, platform to rack, turntable to platform) individually, and swapped my various options around until each was optimised before moving to the next.

The end result was that after months of playing audio roulette and never "scoring", I worked through the whole thing in a weekend, and reduced vibration impact on the turntable by over 20db.
Now I can no longer hear my partner walking around the house through the music on the turntable (!!) - but also the imaging and soundstage remains stable, and piano notes are more solid/real.

So why do I want to know all those specs, figures and numbers? - Because it enables me to model the behaviour of my system, and through that mathematical modeling, I can then do "what if" analysis - what would happen to my system if I change parameter X, or component Y.

With decent modelling, I can go through large numbers of possible permutations and combinations of components in a relatively negligible amount of time - and then when I make a physical change, the chances of achieving my audible goal are increase by several orders of magnitude.

With the right knowledge, I can look at the specifications of an arm a cartridge and a phono stage, and make an informed judgement as to whether the combination is likely to work together effectively.
That judgement is of course only as good as the level of detail in the mathematical model I am using - the more variables I have missed, the more random the result.

Getting back to tracking ability, impedance, VTF etc...

These are normally the details that a cartridge design engineer worries about - they are the parameters that the cartridge designer has to contend with, and balance to produce the AN IO-M cartridge, or the Audio Technica AT95 cartridge.... (balanced obviously by manufacturing and budgetary constraints).

With a thorough understanding of these parameters - supported by the process of measuring, and listening to a library of over 100 cartridges which I have now, I gain the ability to with some degree of accuracy, predict what a given type/design/specification of cartridge is likely to sound like.

Personally I find this fascinating and rewarding in its own right.

And so far the result of the process is that my system is sounding substantially better!

The sound is its own goal...
The data is its own goal too... (I admit to being a geek... :D )

But with the data, the likelihood of improving the sound is increased by several orders of magnitude.

I hope that makes my personal approach clear....

As a vinyl beginner, I purchased the "best" I could. (which was defined as what the salesman told me was best, and what I thought sounded good while being within my budget...)
I then worked for a while in Audio, and spent a lot of time listening to various gear, and visiting competing stores to hear what they had to offer, and what other systems could/did sound like.
Further years of experimenting and listening taught me more, but things/results were still relatively random (or required enormous amounts of time listening to many many components to achieve anything).
It is only over the last 3 years that I started truly measuring - after I realised that the now ubiquitous computer was a complete audio measurement lab for almost no cost... - And that process is definitely not one for beginners, unless they are very very geeky...

bye for now

David





cheap-Jack

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For audio, hearing or measurement get the last say?
« Reply #8 on: 2 May 2012, 07:12 pm »
Hi.

You are not alone. So many so-called "objectivists" out there, like you, believe only measurement can tell the equipment's performance, instead of our ears.

I never go against science which tells us how & what a matter functions or behaves. I was engineering educated & working in electrical industries for decades. I'm aware we can't deny physics.

The main problem is whatever data measured todate in audios bear very little relevance, if any at all, to what our ears perceive & our brain interpretes.

When an audio amp built of solid state devices measured 0.00001% THD, but does not sound as good to our ears vs a tube audio amp meaured 5% THD!
How come? This only shows the current measurement methology is NOT good enough to support what our ears hear.

Measurement is imperial to ensure production is within the boudary of performance requirement in general.  BUT, but for audio, we need better way & equipment to get the right data to support what we hear. So far, we are not remotely close.

Before one day in the remote future when the measurement supports what we hear, let's take our ears as the final say. Measurement should be considered as a technical performance guideline only.

I always take LIVE performance as my gudieline for my audio. Though it is impossible to A/B compare live to reproduced. But given extensive enough music listening live & reproduced music, one should be able to tell good or bad.

NO sane vinyl lover would listen to LP pitched up to 38r.p.m as you sugested unless that person were too deaf/blind for HiFi.

There are so many performance checks down the audio reproduction chain which are technically & sonically much harder to tackle vs TT tonearm tracking.

The first & extremely hard to tame is the phonostage. It's the gateway to the long reproduction chain, which boosts up the small phono signal direct the vinyl discs using ACTIVE devices, be them bipolars or tubes.

Technically, phono pickup is a passive system with mechanical stylus tracking movements converted to electrical signals. But amps are all active devices which boost up any harmonic & time distortion generated from within even if the TT could deliver perfect phono signals due to perfect mechanical-electrical conversion.

FYI, I spent years in design/built SS & tube phono-preamps using the right concept of LESS gain MORE music, a total diversion from all conventional phono preamp designs carried down from day one decades back. My ears tell me this is the right approach vs the  'old school' concept.

I'll comment to the phono cartridges frequency response charts you posted in
your gallery links. Quite different from what my ears hear.

c-J


 

*Scotty*

Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #9 on: 3 May 2012, 01:26 am »
I for one appreciate David's efforts to increase our store of knowledge about phono cartridges.
The phono cartridge is one of the few components in a stereo system whose performance is wholly determined by its mechanical and electrical characteristics. The more we know about how the mechanical characteristics of the phono cartridge effect its measured parameters the closer we become understanding how to chose the more accurate transducer.
 Measurements of the most basic cartridge parameters such as frequency response, channel separation are not performed by reviewers anymore. Relying on the accuracy of manufacturer supplied values for these critical specifications is a less than comforting situation to be in. Contemporary reviews of phono cartridges are now an exercise in subjective hyperbole. We are left with only a reviewers subjective account of how a $5000 and up phono cartridge sounded to them in their system.:duh:
 The cartridge's tracking ability isn't even tested via one of the readily available test records. It would be nice to know how one of these mega-dollar cartridges performs on this kind of standardized test and how the reviewer adjusted their tonearm's VTF, Stylus Rake Angle and Anti-skating Force to get the best tracking behavior out of the cartridge.
 To quote an old Maxim,
"Knowledge is Power"
Scotty
 

dlaloum

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #10 on: 3 May 2012, 03:33 am »
A couple of interesting older articles on the topic of measurement and perception:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/if-it-sounds-good
http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/57/index.html

Perhaps I should open a separate topic on vinyl measurement and perception?

neobop

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #11 on: 3 May 2012, 11:35 am »
I think we benefit the most from combined objective and subjective testing.  Other transducers, speakers, digital sources, etc are routinely measured. Is it too much trouble to test a phono cart, rather than read how it sounds in someones "reference" system?  Even if they try to be helpful and tell us what we might expect in our less than perfect systems, it's really of limited value. Now that vinyl (once again) outsells CD, you'd think they could at least dust off their test records and make an attempt at greater relevance.

I also think the notion that measurements are virtually useless, is nonsense. Even if measurements don't tell us the totality of performance, they can tell quite a bit. If you're looking at a low power amp, wouldn't it be helpful to know its actual power and current capability? We can get a pretty good idea from testing. Objective testing will tell us how it measures and subjective tells us how the amp does driving a pr of speakers. My point is that we need both.

It might seem like finding a relationship between trackability and VTF is of very limited value. I disagree. Although trackability isn't the only measure of performance, you must admit it's essential. Anything that increases our understanding of performance is a good thing IMO, even if I don't completely understand it.  David's example of of his turntable support is a good argument for the value of measurements.  I'd be interested in knowing exactly what kind of set-up and the solution - details. (hint)   :?:





cheap-Jack

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #12 on: 3 May 2012, 02:09 pm »
Hi.
Objective testing will tell us how it measures and subjective tells us how the amp does driving a pr of speakers. My point is that we need both.

My question lies in the reality:- Let's take the example of choosing an audio amp. If it measured not as good but sounds better, which one amp one should take between 2 amps?

As I posted above, a tube amp always measures not as good as a SS amp, so if one were to choose either one, what would YOU suggest?

My choice is the tube amp! 'Cause it sounds better to my ears & I know they "are measuring the WRONG thing."
 
Let's me say it again: Meaurement tells us what it performs, our ears tell us HOW it peforms.
 
c-J

dlaloum

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #13 on: 3 May 2012, 02:14 pm »
Neo as per your request I have at least partly documented my process of "rack design" and posted it as a seperate thread.

It is only partly documented as I did not keep copies of all my measurements... but I still have a directory with a bunch of them so I have provided some samples...


dlaloum

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #14 on: 3 May 2012, 02:25 pm »
Hi.
My question lies in the reality:- Let's take the example of choosing an audio amp. If it measured not as good but sounds better, which one amp one should take between 2 amps?

As I posted above, a tube amp always measures not as good as a SS amp, so if one were to choose either one, what would YOU suggest?

My choice is the tube amp! 'Cause it sounds better to my ears & I know they "are measuring the WRONG thing."
 
Let's me say it again: Meaurement tells us what it performs, our ears tell us HOW it peforms.
 
c-J

Ultimately we all make a decision based on our ears - no argument there - we do not listen with an oscilloscope. (although I do wish I had a copy of that cartoon!)

But when shopping for an amplifier to drive my Quad ESL57's, which I happen to know have an impedance that drops to below 1ohm at some frequencies.... and also cannot handle an input voltage higher than 30 odd volts...

Well I know that I am going to want an unconditionally stable amplifier, capable of putting out great gobbs of current into a 1ohm load, but I won't be needing high power as standard power specs are based on 8ohm loads and imply voltages of well over my voltage limit, which would arc my electrostatic panels and destroy them.

Do I refer to specs and measurements ? Absolutely!!

Do I go and listen to the Musical Fidelity M250, 250W powerhouse monoblock  - nope, I don't care how good it sounds, it is likely to destroy the ESL's

Would I listen to an old QuadII or Quad44 tube amp - you betch - its specs are spot on what I need.

I can save myself thousands of hours by reducing the field of possible contenders for my money by the simple expedient of reading specification sheets and measurements in reviews.... a really useful and time saving step to take.

If we accept your argument, we must assume that you listen to every amplifier in the marketplace that fits into your budget category before deciding on which to purchase.
JFET, MosFet, Valve, single ended, push pull, Class A, AB, D - every single one obviously MUST be properly auditioned - as the specifications and measurements are evidently of no relevance.

c-J how do you choose your amplifier !?!

What process do you use to "short circuit" the infinite possible hours of auditioning required in your proposed "specs are irrelevant" world view?
(or perhaps I should ask, what process which is logically consistent with that world view....)

bye for now

David

cheap-Jack

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All we need is common sense & good ears.
« Reply #15 on: 5 May 2012, 01:37 am »
Hi.

Let's me say it again:- Our ears to decide which amp sounds better. Specs are a guidline to short-list the amps to be tested.

Common sense tell us:-

(1) decide the budget to buy an amp;
(2) within the budget, we short-list the amps by checking the specs of the amps that match up the loudspeakers to be used.
(3) audition the short-listed amps to find out which amp SOUNDS best with
     the loudspeaeker under test.
(4) nail down the one amp that sound best to the ears & purchase it.

I think most, if not all, audio guys would do the same. Unless you act differently.

c-J

PS: verification of the specs of the component is NOT our job. This is done by the manufacturers. Our job is to get the best sounding one.


dlaloum

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Re: Measuring Trackability / Stylus impedance
« Reply #16 on: 5 May 2012, 02:01 am »
So we are in fact in total agreement...

At some point along the line a series of specs/measurements are required as part of the process.

So the question is then what specs/measurements are relevant to you and which ones do you ignore?
And of course how you develop the necessary understanding of those specifications.

All I am doing is focusing down on step 2 within your list - I absolutely do not exclude the other steps, and most especially not step 4 !!!

One of the truly difficult things about cartridges, is that frequently there is no facility to audition them as good vinyl retailers are thin on the ground - and even if there is one locally, they may not have the cartridges you are interested in - which means that you are stuck with focusing in on step 2, and then actually ordering the cartridge - trying it out, and if you don't go for it, sell it online.

With the shift from Bricks and Mortar to online - those specs/measurements and the understanding of them becomes an order of magnitude more important.

There is no Audio retailer within at least a 10km radius of my home that demo's vinyl.

Being in one of Australia's 2 largest cities, does mean that I know of a couple of retailers where I can indeed audition vinyl (with a longer drive...)- but not necessarily the cartridges I am interested in at the time...

I've ended up with quite a collection of different cartridges and styli - and my little trek down the path of measurement is a search for understanding the differences between them.
Also a means of confirming or debunking a lot of the "accepted truths" one finds around audiophiles.... MC's are superior (on what basis?), Line contact styli have better HF response (do they?), etc... etc... etc..

Along the way I have confirmed a number of these "truths" - and cast serious doubt (in my own mind) on several others.

I am also starting to see patterns of performance related to various design approaches - high compliance vs mid/low, differing cantilever shapes and materials, use of cantilever resonance in voicing a cartridge (and its pros and cons).

Simple unchained curiosity....

bye for now

David

dlaloum

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Re: All we need is common sense & good ears.
« Reply #17 on: 5 May 2012, 02:43 am »
PS: verification of the specs of the component is NOT our job. This is done by the manufacturers. Our job is to get the best sounding one.

I totally agree - but have been unable to find consistent cartridge specs...