Back to square one?

celo · « **on:** 27 Apr 2012, 06:33 am »

I was forced to quit my audio hobby for some valid reasons for a while . Then I sold the speakers and amp except my Audio Aero Prima CD player that is because I could not get the money I wanted. Recently, I decided to put together a relatively cheap used audio gear with more convenient setup. I purchased a 6-year old ProAc Studio 125, Topping TP60 amp (PRETTY good amp for what it is), a $75 DAC from Ebay (recommendation from members here, the French guy's DAC) and using it with my old Apple Airport Express. Pretty good sound, easy to listen to. I can change the songs from my iPhone, iPad, etc. etc. Too easy and pretty good sound.

Well, last night I decided to hook up my Prima CD player. It is a $2000 MSRP CD player if I remember correctly. The difference was not big, it was HUGE. The same songs sounded not two times better but ten times better! More open,detailed, cleaner, louder, more air, more realistic, more being there feeling. I mean I was shocked. I wanted my wife to hear it too just to make sure I was not being ridiculous. Within seconds after switching to the CD player, she had the same idea.

I am all confused now. There are two questions here.

-Do I need to get a better DAC combo (hey Squeezebox people or some others who replaced their good sounding CD players?)

-Should I turn to square one and get lost in the CDs and get up to change the CDs?

JLM · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Apr 2012, 09:06 am »

I'm there with you. Had a modded SB3 but difficulty in setup and continual software glitches forced me back to using a CD transport.

But I wanted to tell you to only compare after you've exactly equalized the volume. Research has shown the differences of less than 1 dB (the limit of what we can discern) will skew the results (louder always sounding better). Please do that and get back to us, thanks.

celo · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Apr 2012, 09:10 am »

Quote from: JLM on 27 Apr 2012, 09:06 am

I'm there with you. Had a modded SB3 but difficulty in setup and continual software glitches forced me back to using a CD transport.

But I wanted to tell you to only compare after you've exactly equalized the volume. Research has shown the differences of less than 1 dB (the limit of what we can discern) will skew the results (louder always sounding better). Please do that and get back to us, thanks.

I did that too. I turned the volume up to the same level as CD player when I connected to the DAC/wireless. I also lowered the volume when it was connected to the CD player. Same observation.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #3 on:** 27 Apr 2012, 02:14 pm »

Quote from: celo on 27 Apr 2012, 06:33 am

There are two questions here.

-Do I need to get a better DAC combo (hey Squeezebox people or some others who replaced their good sounding CD players?)

-Should I turn to square one and get lost in the CDs and get up to change the CDs?

My 2 cents : You should turn to square one and get lost in your CDs. You can spend a bundle of money and a lot of time getting up to date with computer audio only to find out that your CD player is actually very good. If you do decide to get your feet wet in this circle, I strongly advise you to keep your CD player and all of your cds. You will be glad that you did.

I do enjoy internet radio, but you don't need anything fancy for that.

charmerci · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Apr 2012, 05:51 pm »

I alluded to it in the cheap and cheerful DAC thread and was "put down" - albeit very gently - but that's really not a good DAC (I mean come on a non-oversampling DAC - lots of high frequency garbage affecting the lower frequencies) put together with a few pennies worth of capacitors, etc.

Flac files downloaded to a high end DAC will give you as good or even better performance. It's up to you to do the research and find a decent DAC to have great sounding music from your computer.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #5 on:** 27 Apr 2012, 10:21 pm »

Yeah, I agree that it is not fair to compare a decent cd player to a computer streaming into a cheap dac. But by the same token, a computer feeding an expensive dac is no guarantee of getting good results. Even if everyone says that it is. You really need to get out there and listen to many different computer front ends rather than just buy on faith. Not an easy task, I realize.

celo · « **Reply #6 on:** 30 Apr 2012, 06:18 am »

Not an easy task Quiet Earth, especially when I am away from the US. This DAC sounds really good actually, dead quiet and very easy to listen to but putting back the CDP...

I was happy with the sound but now I have the urge to buy a better DAC (as much as I love my Prima, the convenience of a wireless DAC is priceless, well maybe $850 limit for a used DAC, haha). Let me tell you though, the Prima is one hell of a CDP for the money.

wushuliu · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 May 2012, 08:28 pm »

Quote from: charmerci on 27 Apr 2012, 05:51 pm

I alluded to it in the cheap and cheerful DAC thread and was "put down" - albeit very gently - but that's really not a good DAC (I mean come on a non-oversampling DAC - lots of high frequency garbage affecting the lower frequencies) put together with a few pennies worth of capacitors, etc.

Flac files downloaded to a high end DAC will give you as good or even better performance. It's up to you to do the research and find a decent DAC to have great sounding music from your computer.

Sorry but you are wrong. And that last paragraph just passes the buck - and into a higher price bracket no less.

As for celo. There are so many variables in a computer audio setup that have to be dealt with that I am not surprised his CD player has better performance. Squeezebox, Airport Express, etc. won't cut it against a $$$ transport. Frankly, it can be a headache getting the best from computer audio. If the CD player does the job, stick with it. If the source is poor, a more expensive dac will just be hampered.

lcrim · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 May 2012, 09:29 pm »

Actually he is correct. The combination of quality computer audio playback into a quality DAC makes A 2K CD player totally outclassed and an obvious antique that should be sold while it still has any value. Cost has only the barest connection to the results. I resent those who keep putting down technology they don't understand.

What are you guys going to do when every system in your home and at work is networked and you need to have to have at least a modicum of understanding of what that's about. Wake up.
Larry

Tyson · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 May 2012, 09:36 pm »

I pretty much agree - a well set up PC or Mac (meaning, a dedicated server), will sound better than a comparably priced CD transport. You do need a good DAC, and I also like a good reclocking unit like the Empirical Audio stuff.

A nice side bonus - having all your music ready to be streamed after you've ripped it to a hard drive. Just make sure to back up your data, because hard drives can and do die. I'd keep the physical CD's too, as a last resort backup, but then again, I'm paranoid.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 May 2012, 09:38 pm »

Tyson, belt and suspenders,+ 1

Scotty

wushuliu · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 May 2012, 10:00 pm »

Quote from: lcrim on 1 May 2012, 09:29 pm

Actually he is correct. The combination of quality computer audio playback into a quality DAC makes A 2K CD player totally outclassed and an obvious antique that should be sold while it still has any value. Cost has only the barest connection to the results. I resent those who keep putting down technology they don't understand.

What are you guys going to do when every system in your home and at work is networked and you need to have to have at least a modicum of understanding of what that's about. Wake up.
Larry

who is correct. and what are they correct about? I don't recall the OP mentioning setting up a dedicated music server. I read Ipod, Airport Express, Squeezebox, 2K CD player, and maybe getting a wireless DAC.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #12 on:** 1 May 2012, 11:57 pm »

Quote from: lcrim on 1 May 2012, 09:29 pm

The combination of quality computer audio playback into a quality DAC makes A 2K CD player totally outclassed and an obvious antique that should be sold while it still has any value. Cost has only the barest connection to the results. I resent those who keep putting down technology they don't understand.

I think you make a good point but try to remember that some of us have heard, owned and maybe even understand "quality computer audio playback" yet we still prefer the sound of a CD played back in real time. Prefer being the key word.

As for the OP, keep the player, but keep trying with your computer audio as you can spare the money. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Tyson · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 May 2012, 12:14 am »

A mac mini or a CAPS v2 server w/an Empirical Off-Ramp to a good DAC will give stellar sound you'd be hard pressed to better even for a lot of $$. A squeezebox can sound very nice too, as long as it's modded. I had a squeezebox for a while, but had dropouts and so eventually went to a PC server with USB. Ipods and Airport expresses are not audiophile quality, IMO.

One other thing not mentioned yet - Hirez. Sure, with discs, you could get an SACD player. But will an SACD player be able to play Blu Ray audio? DVD-A audio? DVD-V hirez audio? Downloaded hirez files? No. But a PC or Mac can do all of them and more.

Danberg · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 May 2012, 01:05 am »

Interesting discussion.

Quote

A mac mini or a CAPS v2 server w/an Empirical Off-Ramp to a good DAC will give stellar sound

Myself, giving thought to delving into computer audio playback, I have a question Tyson... what would you consider "a good DAC", and at what cost range?

There are so many DAC's out there and at such a wide price range. I'm not looking to get on the audio merry-go round in trying to find a "good DAC." Just lookng for sonething that sounds great without major of expense or experimentation!

celo · « **Reply #15 on:** 2 May 2012, 07:12 am »

I do not need a wireless DAC. I just want to be able to play music as same or better than my CDP with a DAC, not necessarily wireless connected but I want to be able to change the music from my iPhone like having a remote. If I have to spend $1850, that is too much now. If $850 used, it is doable. Something like Metrum Octave used, don't know.

charmerci · « **Reply #16 on:** 2 May 2012, 06:15 pm »

celo,

I too, am on a severely restricted budget - far more than you. In my years of audio I have found that if I spend only a few dollars on audio equipment, I only get variations of sounds that I find acceptable or unacceptable. It's simply a matter of what I can tolerate. For example, I like my Sennheiser PCX-250's on my mp3 player because it DOES roll off the high end. If I wear really good headphones, the sound coming out of the player is intolerable!

So for now, I have downloaded all my CD's onto my inexpensive laptop - using FLAC files (most people on AC say WAV files are debatedly just as good.) - in preparation for future upgrades to my equipment. Many people say that JRiver Media is one of the best at keeping CD quality sound. It runs about $60 downloaded off the internet. (Until I can get a much better audio system, I'm just using a free one.) I, too bought an inexpensive USB DAC which is OK at moderate levels.

I found over the years that Audio by Van Alstine gives me the sound that seems to grow better over the years. I will eventually get one of his Vision DAC's ($1100) - though there is a used one on his site right now for $900. And then I won't worry about the latest and greatest - plus he can upgrade all his equipment as they get better.

So until I can afford AVA equipment - sure there's better but it costs more and not what I'm willing to spend - most of the lesser equipment are just variations of compromises in which I can't tell you what you would prefer because I don't buy $200-300 pieces due to finances.

So that's my story.