[brucek]

As video displays progressively get more complicated, they introduce more video lag.

I always noticed a small lip sync problem with my last LCD television and the SP2, but I recently purchased a new television and now lip sync has become a problem.

I see that the SP3 has an adjustable delay, but I wonder if there are any plans to add this feature to the SP2?

I always wondered why it was never added originally - the hardware is certainly there to accomplish the task. Most receiver have this feature. It's a real problem for me now.

brucek

[James Tanner]

As video displays progressively get more complicated, they introduce more video lag.

I always noticed a small lip sync problem with my last LCD television and the SP2, but I recently purchased a new television and now lip sync has become a problem.

I see that the SP3 has an adjustable delay, but I wonder if there are any plans to add this feature to the SP2?

I always wondered why it was never added originally - the hardware is certainly there to accomplish the task. Most receiver have this feature. It's a real problem for me now.

brucek

Hi brucek,

No there is no lip sync feature addition planned for the SP2.  It is strange though as I have found the newer TV's and Video Monitors to have much faster refresh rates so Lip Sync issues seem not to be the problem they have been in the past - what monitor did you buy?

james

[brucek]

Hi brucek,

No there is no lip sync feature addition planned for the SP2.  It is strange though as I have found the newer TV's and Video Monitors to have much faster refresh rates so Lip Sync issues seem not to be the problem they have been in the past - what monitor did you buy?

james

James,

I purchased the latest Sharp 70" LED television (LC-70LE734).

You're correct that processing is much faster on TV's today, but added features and capabilities have slowed down the overall source to display times. This was specifically addressed with HDMI 1.3 specification which incorporates automatic audio synching capabilities that allows devices to perform this synchronization automatically. In addition to this capability, most receivers and processors today add a variable delay feature to fine tune it.

This assumes that you're using HDMI from the source to the display. The problem arises (as is the case when an SP2 is used) when you connect HDMI directly to the television and then an SPDIF cable to the audio processor. The video will always lag the audio.

There is a Game mode (that most TV's have today) that reduced much of the video processing, and this helps a somewhat with the lip sync, but that mode removes a lot of features that I paid for, so that's not a great solution for me. I don't really know how to solve this other than to hope a delay feature is added to the SP2.

brucek

[Marius]

So glad this comes up here, I always experience the same issue. Whether I channel audio through digital out over the BDA or analogue out to the bp26, there is always a certain amount of lip-sync problem. No matter which source-machine used, Tv-set of the newer kind..
My dealer always claims there is no lipSync problem, so no problem solving there....

I've found that using the Tv's digital out for all sources eliminates the problem, but never seem to wonder if I'm losing on sound quality this way. Optical out that is.

I believed to have read that LipSync has to be provided on the source machine, i.e. the Bluray/DVD-player, not the processor?

Marius

[brucek]

Yeah, it's a problem whenever the processor doesn't offer a delay feature for the audio.

It's especially bad when you're connecting HDMI from the source to the TV and then you separately connect optical or coax to the processor. The video will always lag the audio - how could it not?

The problem with using the optical out from the TV is that (in most, if not all TV's) is that it only passes PCM stereo, and so you lose Dolby Digital necessary for movies and TV shows.

I'm surprised that Bryston isn't willing to deal with this problem, but I suppose most of their efforts are with the SP3 (which offers the feature). I would have thought it a rather simple task. If they intend to continue to sell the SP2, it's a must that most buyers would expect today.

brucek

[brucek]

I do find it frustrating to watch my new TV with lip sync problems. I thought I might be able to get used to it, but no such luck.

Just to reassure myself that new flat panel displays offer more video lag than older ones, I hooked up my inexpensive Denon receiver (with HDMI and lip sync adjustment) up to my new TV. As expected, there was no lip sync problem even with the delay adjustment set to zero msec, because the HDMI 1.3 spec took care of the problem.

Since most all processors and receivers sold today use HDMI, there has been little to no reason for any development work on "lip sync delay" devices. Anyone that uses an older processor without HDMI is simply expected to buy a newer processor and the problem is solved. The introduction of HDMI 1.3 spec along with variable delays offered in new receivers and processors has given a green light to television manufacturers to pile on the features and their subsequent video lag.

Unfortunantely, this is a problem for those who own expensive processors like the SP2 that don't offer any variable audio delay feature. I'm actually a bit surprised that Bryston still sells the product without including a lip sync feature. I'm certainly disappointed, but I can imagine how disapponted a new owner would be when they hook it up to their new flat panel and watch some television.

The only solution I see available is the Felston DD740 digital audio delay unit. It's an older unit, but appears capable enough. It has four inputs, so that suffice. I'm loath to pass signals through an external box into my rather expensive SP2, but I don't see any other solution than selling the processor, which I'd rather not do.

It's funny how the mind perceives lip sync error. Some are more sensitive than others. Generally, we can tolerate a certain amount of delay, and the mind is able to ignore it. I know with my older flat panel that I'm still using in another room, if I watch specifically for it I can detect it fairly easily (some shows more than others), but within a few seconds, my mind ignores it and everything is fine (I'm able to remove any sync problems on that system since my cheap Denon receiver has HDMI with a variable audio delay feature).

It's said that audio should lead video by no more than 15 msec and audio should lag video by no more than 45 milliseconds. For film, acceptable lip sync is considered to be no more than 22 msec in either direction. I suppose with my new television, the delay is probably a bit more than the 22 msec and so my mind just can't ignore it.

How lovely it would be if Bryston recognized this problem and added this featuure to their SP2 software. The SP3 has it of course.

brucek

[Marius]

hi,

In all 4 of my historic dvd/bluray players, except a Cambridge Audio Universal player I had on test, lip-sync, or audio adjustment was provided. As is on the cable box. One of the fundamental selection-criteria for me.

A lot of processors I checked don;t provide for this setting, they all follow the guidelines that adjustments have to be made on the source machine. Which does make sense, because with several video sources, different adjustments have to be made.

The Cambridge Audio player states in its manual you have to buy the CA processor to be able to lipsync their dvd-player...

I always do as follows: start playing a disc with both tv and amp playing the audio. Problems are immediately audible as a funny kind of echo, and adjustment is easily done. Provided your source allows you to ofcourse.

I have no multichannel setup yet...... do understand your frustration if this method won't work in your situation. It's a real Nag.

good luck,
Marius

[brucek]

I always do as follows: start playing a disc with both tv and amp playing the audio. Problems are immediately audible as a funny kind of echo, and adjustment is easily done. Provided your source allows you to ofcourse.

Yeah, if I turn up the audio on the television itself, while the SP2 audio is on, you can sure hear how far the audio is off. Echo is a good way to describe it.

My satellite set top box doesn't provide a variable delay unfortunately.

A lot of processors I checked don;t provide for this setting, they all follow the guidelines that adjustments have to be made on the source machine.

Now that newer processors enjoy HDMI it's not really a problem, since there's a single output and all sources are automatically adjusted within the HDMI 1.3 spec. Then if some sources are slightly different, your mind will adjust for it. Or you can play with the processors variable delay.

brucek

[mv038856]

Hi there,

lipsync problems can have various reasons... and can have an easy solution.

Reasons can be the video processing of the display/projector/video-processor or, depending on your audio/video routing, the audio post processing of your receiver/preamplifier-processor. Most components that process one or both signals, sync them by themselves. The problem occurs if the processing of one signal is done in a component, that doesn't route both signals. So it depends on your configuration and wiring. I had issues when using the post processing of my Onkyo pre/pro on the HD audio while using the SP/DIF signal of the source to sync my D-Box motion system. In my case, while HD-audio and the video were perfectly in sync, the motion came early... quite annoying when you feel the shot before you see/hear it...

The solution for sync issues is either a delay in one of the standard components, i.e. source component (DVD/Blu-Ray player) or the receiver/preamplifier-processor, or an additional device (in my case the only solution). I am using a Primare MasterDelay Box, but there are numerous boxes out there that can do the trick for low-res audio, i.e. SP/DIF through either Toslink or coaxial connections.

Therefore, if Bryston doesn't want or can't add such a feature to the SP-1/1.7/2, you can add it yourself. Please note that Bryston's focus always appears to be the best sonic experience. There will always be features that every cheap AV receiver offers that a Bryston pre/pro simply won't.

Cheers!

Markus

[brucek]

I am using a Primare MasterDelay Box, but there are numerous boxes out there that can do the trick for low-res audio, i.e. SP/DIF through either Toslink or coaxial connections.

Therefore, if Bryston doesn't want or can't add such a feature to the SP-1/1.7/2, you can add it yourself. Please note that Bryston's focus always appears to be the best sonic experience. There will always be features that every cheap AV receiver offers that a Bryston pre/pro simply won't.

Yeah, there are a handful of delay units such as your Primare Master Delay Box, the Alchemy2 D2L Digital Delay Line and the Felston DD740 Digital Delay Box (that I mentioned earlier).

I don't think adding a delay to the Bryston SP2 would have any effect on the sound (the SP3 enjoys this feature), rather it's a matter of economics.  There's not a lot of upside in Bryston spending programmer resources on older processors. My original point was that if Bryston intends on keeping the SP2 in their production for sale, that it's a required feature today - and one that owners would appreciate.

bruce