[phoward]

Absolutely delighted with my HT2-TL  purchase last year.  Even after moving to a much smaller listening room than planned (11x10 with 10 foot ceilings) I found these speakers to be extremely forgiving with regards to placement. WAF is over the top - especially after getting turntable set up...in her words "it's truly like listening to live music in our family room"

Haven't felt the need to add subwoofer - these go plenty low for the music I listen to and movies I watch. Where I have been upgrading are my sources - found used Cambridge Audio 840c to play CDs & stream iTunes library content (via Apple TV) and a used Rega P3/24 with Dynavector 10x5 cartridge.

Next thing to upgrade is my Harmon Kardon  665 integrated - after 36 years of service....

Heard Franks Fet Valve gear at a CA show and was blown away - but wonder if I need that much power for my small room...also have found the need to boost the bass tone control when listening at low  volume with the HK and wonder if I can do without tone & loudness control...

Realize there have been numerous threads on the topic of which electronics work best with Salk, but would appreciate suggestions on integrated or separates that deliver emotional, engaging experiences with no adjustment of tone controls at relatively low volume...or if I should be choosing equipment with tone controls/loudness function to compensate...

Thanks!

[JLM]

Glad you're happy with Salk.

Sorry, but that seems like a really crummy room (nearly a cube).  Cubes (next to spheres) the worst acoustic shape and smaller the worse for any room.  Small rooms make themselves heard and spheres/cubes produce tons of echo (especially at bass frequencies).  So I'm amazed to read that you'd want to boost bass.  Is there any acoustic room treatments or equalization being used?? 

DEQ hardware is much more adaptable/usable versions of tone controls after getting a proper room 1st, and treated 2nd, but would require separates or an integrated with pre-amp out/power-amp inputs.

[jsalk]

Heard Franks Fet Valve gear at a CA show and was blown away - but wonder if I need that much power for my small room...also have found the need to boost the bass tone control when listening at low  volume with the HK and wonder if I can do without tone & loudness control...

Very glad to hear you are enjoying your HT2-TL's.

I don't think your issue of bass response at low volume levels has anything to do with the room, your receiver or your speakers for that matter.  What you are experiencing is due primarily to the nature of human hearing.

Fletcher and Munson conducted a number of studies and in 1937 published their findings.  While their initial work was refined over the years by others, their basic findings were confirmed: Human hearing is less sensitive to low frequencies as volume is reduced.  Here is a graph that shows the relationship between volume (SPL) and human hearing sensitivity.



In the '70's, some amp manufacturers installed "loudness contour" circuits in amps.  When the circuit was engaged, the amp boosted low frequencies at low volumes to compensate for the "Fletcher/Munson effect."  I don't see these circuits being used much today, but the effect remains.

People often ask which of our speakers performs best at low volumes.  I always need to explain that our speakers perform quite well at all volumes, but no speaker can overcome this aspect of human hearing.  And no amp without a loudness contour circuit can either.  Human hearing simply isn't very sensitive to low frequencies at low volume.  As a side note, humans generally cannot localize sounds under about 150Hz or so either.  That is why you can generally place a subwoofer just about anywhere in the room and you won't be able to tell exactly where the low frequencies are coming from (other than the fact that it may pressurize the room differently).

I hope this helps.

- Jim

[phoward]

Got it. Not the speakers, it's the human condition! 

Thanks Jim. So when auditioning new electronics either need tone / loudness controls or permission from rest of the family to turn it up! 

[Zheeeem]

I use Frank Van Alstine's little integrated with a pair of stock Songtowers, and I am very happy.  It has all the power I need, and Salk and AVA matches up pretty well.

[ctviggen]

As a side note, humans generally cannot localize sounds under about 150Hz or so either.  That is why you can generally place a subwoofer just about anywhere in the room and you won't be able to tell exactly where the low frequencies are coming from (other than the fact that it may pressurize the room differently).

I don't find this to be true at all.  It's incredibly easy for me to localize a single subwoofer crossed over at 80Hz or so.  That's why I've gone to using multiple subs in different locations (i.e., attempt to put them in "random" locations).  Right now, I haven't had time to work on adding my second sub, and you could blindfold me and spin me around, and I could easily tell you where my sole sub is.  I had the second sub operating for a while, and that helped.

[Gzerro]

I don't find this to be true at all.  It's incredibly easy for me to localize a single subwoofer crossed over at 80Hz or so.  That's why I've gone to using multiple subs in different locations (i.e., attempt to put them in "random" locations).  Right now, I haven't had time to work on adding my second sub, and you could blindfold me and spin me around, and I could easily tell you where my sole sub is.  I had the second sub operating for a while, and that helped.

I have found this to be true as well.

I think it has to do with Jim's comment on "pressurizing the room". In a larger room the sub can't equally pressurize the room so while you can't necessarily localize the sound, you can feel which direction the sound is coming from. I think the ventriloquism effect comes into play as well to some extent.

[jsalk]

I think it has to do with Jim's comment on "pressurizing the room". In a larger room the sub can't equally pressurize the room so while you can't necessarily localize the sound, you can feel which direction the sound is coming from. I think the ventriloquism effect comes into play as well to some extent.

This is the case.  If a single sub pressurized the room evenly, you will not be able to localize it if it were restricted to frequencies under about 150Hz.  Of course, your ability to pressurize a room evenly with a single sub is highly room-dependent.

- Jim

[jtwrace]

I use Frank Van Alstine's little integrated with a pair of stock Songtowers, and I am very happy.  It has all the power I need, and Salk and AVA matches up pretty well.

Bingo!  This is why Dr. Geddes has done this. 

[jsalk]

.

[Art_Chicago]

Absolutely delighted with my HT2-TL  purchase last year.  Even after moving to a much smaller listening room than planned (11x10 with 10 foot ceilings) I found these speakers to be extremely forgiving with regards to placement. WAF is over the top - especially after getting turntable set up...in her words "it's truly like listening to live music in our family room"

Haven't felt the need to add subwoofer - these go plenty low for the music I listen to and movies I watch. Where I have been upgrading are my sources - found used Cambridge Audio 840c to play CDs & stream iTunes library content (via Apple TV) and a used Rega P3/24 with Dynavector 10x5 cartridge.

Next thing to upgrade is my Harmon Kardon  665 integrated - after 36 years of service....

Heard Franks Fet Valve gear at a CA show and was blown away - but wonder if I need that much power for my small room...also have found the need to boost the bass tone control when listening at low  volume with the HK and wonder if I can do without tone & loudness control...

Realize there have been numerous threads on the topic of which electronics work best with Salk, but would appreciate suggestions on integrated or separates that deliver emotional, engaging experiences with no adjustment of tone controls at relatively low volume...or if I should be choosing equipment with tone controls/loudness function to compensate...

Thanks!

Separates of course; you can order AVA preamp with tone controls, but i guess not the latest Fet valve preamp. You can get an EC version of Insight (SS), T8 (vacuum tube) or Avastar( hybrid). They say his phono section is great, too. I am thinking to get into vinyl myself.

[srb]

I use Frank Van Alstine's little integrated with a pair of stock Songtowers, and I am very happy.  It has all the power I need, and Salk and AVA matches up pretty well.

     Bingo!  This is why Dr. Geddes has done this.

Dr. Geddes uses a Van Alstine integrated and Salk Songtowers?  You would think he would use his own speakers!

Steve

[jtwrace]

     Bingo!  This is why Dr. Geddes has done this.

Dr. Geddes uses a Van Alstine integrated and Salk Songtowers?  You would think he would use his own speakers!

Steve

I obviously quoted the wrong post....

I don't find this to be true at all.  It's incredibly easy for me to localize a single subwoofer crossed over at 80Hz or so.  That's why I've gone to using multiple subs in different locations (i.e., attempt to put them in "random" locations).  Right now, I haven't had time to work on adding my second sub, and you could blindfold me and spin me around, and I could easily tell you where my sole sub is.  I had the second sub operating for a while, and that helped.

[JLM]

CT, you've "swarmmed" (as per Geddes/Duke/etc. mulitple subs even out the pressurization of the room).

phoward, what you need is old fashioned "loudness control" that compensates for the Fletcher-Munson effect.  Audio purist drove that and tone controls into extinction decades ago.  The problem with loudness controls is that to work right it has to assume room size and speaker efficiency.  And as I posted above, EQ (like my 31 band Behringer) is the best way, with vinyl in the mix, to tweak frequency response (it is a revelation to hear flat frequency response).  But again, EQ should only be applied after proper setup and room treatments.

[Nuance]

As Jim already noted, localization is highly dependent on the subwoofer itself and the room interaction.  Most people cannot localize a subwoofer below 120Hz if the sub is capable enough to pressurize it.  Again, it all depends on the room and the capabilities of the sub(s).

Concerning separates, go for it; I don't think you'll regret it.  If you like Frank's stuff you don't "need" a big hog type amp; just get something smaller like the Insight+ 240 or 260. 

Regarding the lower bass frequencies, this is where a subwoofer comes into play, as you can do a couple things differently.

1) You can place the subwoofer where it sounds and measures the best.  It is unlikely that the best place in your room for the speakers (imaging, a wide and deep soundstage, the least reflections, etc) is also the best place for achieving a good bass response.  Crossing to a sub (or just adding one) can provide the best of both worlds.  The one caveat is it's no easy task to achieve a great blend, so you'll have to work at it.

2) With a subwoofer, you can apply Parametric EQ and create a bass curve tailored to your tastes.  Like Jim mentioned, we don't hear the lower bass as well as the upper, so you could apply an arced curve with an EQ, with the lowest bass being a little louder than the upper bass.  Although it may not measure "flat" it may sound flat to your ears, which is all that matters.

With all that said, the subwoofer really does need to be good quality.  I love Dr. Geddes work, but the one thing I completely disagree on is his claim that the quality of the subwoofer doesn't matter; this is absolutely untrue in my experience (and many others).  Otherwise his theories and implementation are spot on.  So, knowing that, if you do want to get a quality sub you're in the right place: Jim is also a master subwoofer builder.

[fsimms]

I find that my sub crossed over at 80 Hz is almost impossible to localize.  I have had many people be surprised when I turned off my downward firing SVS sub as they didn’t know it was on.  This was even though their elbow was resting against the sub!  If you can localize it, it probably is due to higher harmonics such as distortion or cabinet flexing.

Bob

[mr_bill]

PM sent

[cujobob]

I heard Earl's old setup using cheap subs and it sounded fantastic! When using multiple subs you're decreasing the work on each sub. Plus, remember he was fairly specific about what types of subs and how they were utilized. When only using one sub, it's a different story because more is required from it. Localization of a subwoofer can be from a few different things... The room, how well the sub is dialed in, feline genetic enhancements, etc.

Low Level bass does seem to disappear, couldn't you buy a separate subwoofer for night bass and run it with extra gain? Just use one subwoofer dialed in properly for normal listening and the other for low level.