Average versus peak consumption

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David Ellis

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Average versus peak consumption
« on: 20 Jan 2004, 04:02 am »
I pose this question here because I believe you gentlemen actually have some knowledge regarding this issue.  I also believe dissussion about this might be helpful for the readers.

Some time ago I did a crude power consumption test using my speakers.  My goal was to determine the average power consumption.  My 1801 speakers are about 85db sensitive at 8 ohms nominal (a low of 6.2 ohms dcr).

First, I turned the volume knob on my speakers to very loud level.  This listening level is what I'd consider "tolerable" for 1-2 minutes maximum.  Anyhow, my room was very filled with rock-n-roll sound from my 85db/watt speakers.

I then pulled the speaker leads from 1 of the speakers and inserted an 8 ohm resistor across the + and -.  A couple of things happened.

1.  The resistor got very hot.

2.  I measured an AVERAGE voltage drop of about 8 volts with the music playing.

After some quick math, I realized that I was running 8 watts of power through my speakers.  This isn't very much.

So my question is... What is the TYPICAL  ratio of peak versus average music energy flowing through speakers?  If 8 watts average is "enough", what are the peaks?  My hunch is the peaks are 3-6 x the average.

What do you guys think?

Since I don't have an O'Scope, I can't really test this myself.

Dave

avahifi

Average versus peak consumption
« Reply #1 on: 20 Jan 2004, 08:49 pm »
Yup, you are in the right ballpark, a 10 watt average level is very loud in most rooms with most speakers.  We suspect the peaks are about 10 times that, in the 100 watt region once in a while.  Frank Van Alstine

sica

Average versus peak consumption
« Reply #2 on: 21 Jan 2004, 07:09 pm »
Hi!  It sounds like 100 watts are all we need, even if we take the peaks into consideration.  So why is it that, when everything else is equal, a more powerful amp usually sounds better than a less powerful amp?  (for example the 550Ex vs 350Ex)  Is it because of more reserve power?  Or is our listening level too high?

David Ellis

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Bar Room volume versus loud spl
« Reply #3 on: 21 Jan 2004, 11:43 pm »
Amplifier output is a big can-o-worms.

I generally disagree that bigger amplifiers sound better.  However, I will certainly allow that this comes following exposure to good amplifiers.  Somehow the cheap amps sound worse as the power ratings drop.  

I can offer that the industry standard for HT receivers has only 1 channel driven to obtain the power rating.  This stands in comparison to stereo amplifiers having 2 channels driven to obtain the power rating.   This explains why a 120wpc HT amp sounds much less powerful than a 120wpc stereo amp from AVA.  

Dave

avahifi_lj

Average versus peak consumption
« Reply #4 on: 22 Jan 2004, 03:29 pm »
Hi:

I agree with Dave in that higher power amps generally don't sound any better.  Many manufacturers, however, directly tie the quality of the amp to the power rating so people often think that the better sound is the result of more Watts.  In reality the reason some higher power amps sound better is that with those amps you are getting better circuitry.  You are not comparing the same thing.  For example, if you take an original Hafler 200 amp and compare it to our OmegaStar 440EX amp the OmegaStar will blow the Hafler away in sound reproduction -- not because of the output is double, but because the circuits used in the OmegaStar are far superior to the original Hafler.

In AVA amps we use the same circuit design for each model offered in the series (OmegaStar and FetValve); therefore all of the amps in a series sound the same.  If you are running either the OmegaStar 260EX or the OmegaStar 440EX both will sound the same.  If, however, you compare the OmegaStar 440EX to the FetValve 350EXR the FetValve will sound better because the FetValve is a more refined circuit, even though the FetValve is lower powered.  One of the most common questions we get is how much improvement in sound is there in the FetValve 550EXR over the FetValve 350EXR.  The answer is "no difference" in sound.  As with all of the various amps the only difference is the power output which is dictated by the number of output devices and the power supply in the amp.  

More powerful amps do have a place, however.  For example, if you have a less efficient speaker a larger amp is need to drive the speaker.  Some speakers such as Magnepan Magnenplanar MG3.6 speakers require more power (85dB efficiency and a recommended power = 100W to 250W) and greatly benefit from a more powerful amplifier.  Trying to run the MG3.6 with a 50 Watt amplifier would most likely result in poor sound.  With those speakers I would most definitely drive them with either the OmegaStar 440EX or the FetValve 550EXR.

Having a large amplifier has another benefit, and that has to do with "not" hurting your speakers.  Many people think that too large of an amplifier will hurt their speakers, and yes it is possible to blow out speakers with too much power at extremely high volume levels.  The main reason that speakers blow (at least in my experience) is that the amplifier is TOO SMALL.  People drive the speaker to high volume levels with low powered amplifiers that are driven so hard that the amp "clips" at high levels.  The amplifier is trying to deliver more output than it is designed to do and eventually runs up against the limits of the power supply and output devices.  When the amplifier clips it's putting out VERY NASTY signals to the speakers.  The clipped signal is beyond what the speaker (actually the drivers and crossover networks in the cabinet) is designed to handle and the result is a fried speaker.  This is most common with low powered amps trying to drive less efficient speakers at high volume levels.  The less efficient speakers need more power to talk and the amp simply can't deliver the power needed. Dave (Ellis) may be able to give us more insight on what happens to speakers when driven with a clipped signal......

As Frank has stated for years, or at least since I first met him in 1996, buy the amp that fits your needs.  Don't over spend on too big of an amp.  Save the money and buy some music to enjoy on your new system.

Larry Jenkins

revelator

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FETValve Power, Clipping and Regulators
« Reply #5 on: 22 Jan 2004, 06:41 pm »
Larry,

The post below is very interesting and clearly explained.  I was wondering  -- with the new regulated FetValve amps, say the FETValve 350EXR,  What would be the maximum power output these amp can supply with the new regulator circuit in it before they go into clipping?  I've seen some maximum power amp ratings on the former 350 EX to be 160W/ch  with 180 - 200W/ch at tops.  

How does the new regulator circuit affect the maximum output?  I suppose this is input signal regulation (prior to power output stages) -- So where does  the power to these regulator come from?  Is it a  dedicated P.S. for regulators.  Is it associated to the FET-Tube input stage circuit?

How does the 350EXR max output and clipping compares to the 550EXR?

Any comments appreciated -- Thank you

avahifi_lj

Average versus peak consumption
« Reply #6 on: 22 Jan 2004, 08:13 pm »
Hi:

The regulated circuits in the FetValve EXR amps are driving the audio boards.  There are separate regulated supplies to each audio board (left and right channel) and each major section of the audio board.  By having separate supplies we have cut down on the interaction between the channels and the sections of each channel (tube, FET, etc.).  In essence each section of each audio board is isolated via the regulation circuits and fed a constant voltage that does not vary in response to other part of the audio circuit or the other channel.  All of the regulated power supply circuits are powered from a hefty toroid transformer.  The transformer is of significant size that even in brownout situations the regulated supplies still provide the proper voltages to the audio circuits.  You would need a pretty significant drop (well beyond any brown outs I have seen) in voltage to cause problems.

The new regulated power supply does not change the power output of the FetValve amps.  You will see the same output on both the EX and EXR amps.  The reason is that the audio board voltages between the two series are the same, just regulated in one and not the other.  The FetValve 550EXR adds about 90 Watts per channel over the FetValve 350EXR.  We don't get caught up in the "Watts game" so you will find that our "published" ratings are pretty conservative....

Thanks for your interest in AVA products!

Larry

David Ellis

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zzzzt, zzzzt, pop, pop, silence
« Reply #7 on: 22 Jan 2004, 11:34 pm »
I chucked when reading Larry's post from above about clipping.  I also think it is very important to understand this aspect of amplifiers.  

When a tube amplifier is overdriven (clipped) it simply rolls off the peaks of the signal.  This is audible artifact is sloppy/compressed with no dynamics.  Whe a tube amplifier is clipped there is actually LESS power traveling to the speakers.

When Solid State amplifier is overdriven (clipped) it adds a huge quantity of ripple behind the primary signal.   Hence, when you set the volume knob at "7" and clipping begins, the solid state amplifier produces significantly more power.  The audible artifact sounds nasty/harsh.  Whe a tube amplifier is clipped there is actually MORE power traveling to the speakers.

Too much of this will overheat the voice coil of the driver, and... zzzzt, zzzzt, pop, pop, silence :cry:  .   Fortunatly this hasn't happened to any of my cusomers yet.

Dave

EProvenzano

Average versus peak consumption
« Reply #8 on: 23 Jan 2004, 02:07 am »
uhhh...Dave...I think I'll be calling you soon....
That sounds familiar.

just j/k :)

David Ellis

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Very funny!
« Reply #9 on: 23 Jan 2004, 02:12 am »
Thanks for the laugh.   :wink:

Dave

Sean

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Average versus peak consumption
« Reply #10 on: 3 May 2004, 05:28 am »
When ANY amplifier goes into clipping ( severe saturation ), the peak to average ratio is severely reduced.  When standing on the throttle, the peak to average ratio is 1/1.  That's because the peak becomes the average.  Needless to say, this sounds pretty horrid in terms of hi-fi use but it can be put to good use in other forms of electronics.

Since the the peak to average radio is reduced, the heating power generated by the circuit is increased by that same measure.  In other words, if we had a 10 / 1 peak to average ratio and went to a 5/1 peak to average ratio ( due to compression on the recording ), the average listening level would be higher and so would the average power consumed.  As a side note, i didn't pull those figures out of my hat but selected figures that somewhat represent a Classical recording vs that of a "rock" recording.

As we start to drive a system into clipping, the average power is now so high that heat is being generated within the amp.  That is because it has to generate a higher average voltage and current level simultaneously whereas it was only delivering voltage and current before as it was needed on a dynamic ( peak ) basis.  That same transfer of energy is taking place at the speaker.  As such, the acoustic output of the speaker is not only higher, so are the thermal losses.  This is because most speakers will go into compression when driven harder due to displacement limitiations within their own suspensions.  The lost energy due to lack of motion / constriction in the suspension is therefore dissipated as heat in the motor structure.  If the motor structure can't dissipate the heat as fast as the energy is being applied, and this level of energy is sustained for a long enough period of time, the heat literally melts the insulation off of the windings in the coil and / or engulfs the voice coil former.  The typical results of such a situation are the driver opening due to a broken connection, the driver shorting out due to the lack of enamal insulation between windings or the driver binding up due to excessive thermal expansion of the voice coil / coil former.  If any of these situations occurs, we would hope it was the first one i.e. the driver opening up internally.  This produces a high impedance which limits the power draw from the amplifier circuit.  If the driver were to short out, it would produce a low resistance to the amp, possibly doing damage to the amp from excessive current draw and / or igniting the driver as it tries to dissipate all of the power that it is consuming.  The last variable in the equation i.e. the dragging or bound up driver will still dissipate energy but at the same time, creates a highly reactive load.  In most cases, trying to get the driver to move / produce higher levels of sound will result in the driver opening up internally.  None the less, if a driver does not move freely, i would NOT try to "break it free" by driving the tar out of it with an amp.  As mentioned above, the results might not be pretty.  

Other than that, it's been my experience that it is easier to blow a speaker with either too much power or improper design of a crossover network.  Both result in the same thing i.e. over-excursion & displacement limited binding due to over-drive / too much power.  Modern day woofers of even reasonable build quality are typically quite rugged.  Due to their smaller motor structures and limited ability to displace heat, midranges and tweeters are far more susceptible to being over-powered.  Just bare in mind that clipping DOES increase the average power, so in effect, clipping is just another form of overdriving the speaker / feeding it more power than it can dissipate.   Sean
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