"This is Not a Pipe"

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DaveNote

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"This is Not a Pipe"
« on: 3 Sep 2011, 04:13 pm »
Jabroni started a thread on his bitterness and disgruntlement about hifi not overcoming defects in CD recordings. I have started this thread to take his point in a slightly different direction, without being cautioned that I am "off topic." That direction is about what we can expect from our hobby, variously described here as a passion or an addiction.

I start with this question: What are we listening to when we put on a CD or listen to a ripped CD?

René Magritte, a nineteenth century surrealist painter, once painted a picture of a smoking tobacco pipe with a caption reading, "This is Not a Pipe." His point was that it was a painting of a pipe, not an actual pipe, and more importantly, that a representation is not reality. It was a statement about the limits of art, which is the creation of a kind of illusion - the same thing is true of novels, dramas, movies, etc.

We who buy hifi gear to play recorded music need a similar reality check, a caption reading "This is not music." Meaning that it is recorded music. Not live music, and it never will or can be.

Just like Magritte's painting, we are hearing a kind of illusion. But is that a bad thing? Absolutely Not! Even knowing that art is not reality, we can enjoy it because it has value in many ways, not the least of which is sheer enjoyment and, on occasion, a perspective that resonates with a kind of truth about our world.

I think of recorded music this way: It is like a book, the end product of a lot of revision and editing, and a final decision by the author and his editors that this is it - this is what we want the world to see, not the first manuscript.

Recorded music is like that. What goes on a CD is a product of endless variables - the kind of mics used, the kind of recording equipment, the placement of it, the room used, the acoustics of the room, the mixing, etc. Even in an auditorium, listeners sitting in different places will get a different impression of live music, and recorded music is even more complex. But at the end of the day, it is an artificial representation manufactured by artists and technicians.

So what can our audio gear do? Its limit is this: it can try to reproduce as accurately or as faithfully as possible, given the limits of electronics, cable, drivers, etc., what those artists and technicians decided to transfer to the CD (which itself has limitations), or it can add something of its own that listeners want to hear. I think Bryston's intent is to pursue the former and a number of other manufacturers the latter, which is no criticism, since my point is that as a consumer, you have every right to buy the illusion that pleases you the most. I love Proust's seminal novel. I can't stand James Joyce's. But that's my taste, not a judgment on readers who love Ulysses.

The vast majority of works of art are badly done. Only a handful can be called great. Not many can be called very good, but they often can be enjoyed. And sometimes, there are poor works of art that have significant redeeming graces, as in listening to wonderful artists recorded many years ago. Miles Davis' "KInd of Blue" was a notoriously poor recording, but nevertheless is considered a must-have for any jazz enthusiast. Truly great recordings, as with any art, are rare. But those that aren't great still can be enjoyed. And I've found, as others in this Circle have, that this enjoyment is enhanced with good audio equipment.

Dave


Mag

Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #1 on: 3 Sep 2011, 04:41 pm »
What some of us are discovering, those that own Bryston gear such as BCD-1, BDA-1, pre-amps, SST2 amps, and perhaps other manufacturers. Is that there is more detail content contained on a 16 bit CD than previously realized. Even if it is artificial.

Hi-Res format should serve to reveal even more intricasies and nuances in artificial music. :smoke:

DaveNote

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #2 on: 3 Sep 2011, 05:46 pm »
Execellent point, Mag. Through my BDP-1, BDA-1. and SSST2s, I'm discovering the same thing. To carry the analogy farther, it is like finding new charms in a well-known old painting that has been properly cleaned and restored. But, of course, because tastes differ, some will prefer the unrestored art.

Dave

InfernoSTi

Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #3 on: 3 Sep 2011, 07:31 pm »
DaveNote,

Now you've opened up a can of worms for sure!  :lol:

OK, the formalist art historian Heinrich Wolfflin devided the great renaissance masters into two categories, the liner and the painterly.  One was highly realistic and you could examine it very closely (think Raphael), while the other was much more impressionistic (think Rembrandt). The first tried to depict reality in as fine a detail as possible, while the other tried to depict reality in as emotionally engaging manner as possible. 

The first was always self-contained, evenly lit/shadowed, and had finely grained brushwork.



The second spread past the frame as if looking out a window, was dramatically lit/shadowed, and had rough, thick brushwork.



It seems that the debate of what sounds more "real" with audio falls into the same two categories.  The first type, very liner and fine, measures well against reality.  The second type, very painterly and textured, feels more realistic.  Much like the debates over SS vs. Tubes or box vs. open baffle or 20-20K vs tonal. 

This is a classic art debate that isn't resolved in a zero sum total (a winner and a loser).  Instead, it is one to be appreciated so long as you recognize which is which and have educated yourself as to what is excellence in that category. I think one of the great things about audio is that you can "fine tune" the presentation to gain more/less of what you want: hi rez digital through a tube with OB speakers is how I find the most enjoyment.  Others prefer there own mix. 

What really bothers me is those who have never stepped back to see the forest and insist that the one tree they are closest to is the only way it is. If they only knew what they were missing... :duh:

John

DaveNote

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #4 on: 3 Sep 2011, 08:07 pm »
John I liked your comment, and photos, as well. I would observe that the works of the artists of both schools of art, despite the different approaches of their creators, were representations, images, not the real thing. They were all Magritte's pipes. Indeed, the photos you have shared with us are not even paintings - they are photos of paintings, and therefore representations of representaitons.

The debate about which type of audio reproduction is more "real" - SS versus tubes, vinyl versus CD - is itself unreal and truly is about something else. Recorded music is not real, so the debate starts from a false premise. Those over-wrought advocates claiming that one or the other is closer to "live" are all wrong, since in both cases, recorded music is just that and there is no way of determining how it compares to what was heard "live" when the recording was made. The recording itself is the only record of what happened at that moment, and it is a representation. Therefore, the SS v tube debate is as ridiculous a debate as between those who might argue that a blue display on a BDP-1 is better than a green display. The battle is about SS v tubes is nothing more, or less, than this: One debater likes one thing and the other likes another. The battle these people pursue is, sadly, about trying impose, via silly argument, one's taste on other people.

InfernoSTi

Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #5 on: 3 Sep 2011, 08:52 pm »
Dave,

Your comments remind me of the paradox that we gain our understanding of reality by our perceptions of reality, not by reality itself.  So one sees the image of a horse on their retina, not the horse itself.  Therefore, when we see a painting of a horse, we are actually seeing a retina image of a depiction of a horse, etc.  One more layer of processed reality rather than reality itself.  What we perceive to be "real" is simply based on our ability to see in the manner we see.  This issue can be extrapolated much further.  What we can measure is only as accurate as the gradations we can measure with.  We must always be mindful that perception and reality are two different things (or be doomed to be flat earthers!).  :lol:

Personal preference can grow and change yet once one has appreciated something, they can usually continue to appreciate it for what it is once they move onto another preference.  This demonstrates that appreciation is both taste and understanding.  This duality seems to be the convergence of the greatest pleasure with art.

John

DaveNote

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #6 on: 3 Sep 2011, 09:13 pm »
John, I like the way you think and write. Mind you, that conclusion is only a perception and ultimately not a reality. But so what? I may be dreaming I'm a butterfly, only to wake and discover I am a butterfly thinking I am a person. In either case, as a person/butterfly I believe your comment to be outstanding.

As to this thread and Circle, if one's perception of one's gear and its reproduction of recorded music gives one pleasure, that is all the reality that truly matters.

Dave

Laundrew

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #7 on: 3 Sep 2011, 10:16 pm »
Perhaps it is high time for a new spin on "Cogito ergo sum." How about, "If I can hear it, it must be real."

 :P :wink:

A most enjoyable thread thus far  :thumb:

Be well...

amblin

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #8 on: 4 Sep 2011, 04:14 pm »
 :green: This is a hobby, not a livelihood. So if it's taken too technically, it'll usually spin off the track and end very badly.

What we all hear, regardless of the source--- LP, CD, DAT, RtR... We are all listening to the reproduction of a performance,  done by the artists. A recorded , Transfered, Mastered, Mixed, then re-mastered,re-mixed sound. Behind it, there are the boring electronics, mics, microphone amplifiers, tapes, master tapes, session tapes, monitors,  mixing tables (my god just look at the sheer number of knobs on it...), and other equipments.  Using these electronics, there are the dozens of peoples , record director, balance engineers, technitians... the lot.

There is no short cut. These are the steps we simply can not skip or alter yet so vital to the final quality of a recording. We are at the END of a looooooooooong chain. 

Now, the gears,  the sound reproduced by our gears. They are supercars. The end product to show our, and the manufacturer's  capabilities, determination and performance goals. Oh of course we can complain it's not punchy enough, it's not practical, it's not as good as what that banker just brought, it's too expensive or it's simply the result of an unrealistic dream.  But did you see that crazy smile on the Ferrari driver's face? He knows all the short commings, he knows it'll only worth half of what he just paid afteronly a year. But still, he's having fun. So why can't we? Come on, just don't let that tiny detail spoil an otherwise lovely day. You already done the research before you buy, it's too late to regret :green:

A hobby is a hobby, it's something above the need of a normal life. Something extra, something better in one way or another,something to furfill ones desire. And in many cases, impractical in other's eyes :

'My god!  $8000 on a CD player? Are you crazy?!'
'Yeah yeah, and you just spent $300 on that tiny bottle of magic cream again, am i still seeing the wrinkles before me? Be realistic!'

James Tanner

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #9 on: 4 Sep 2011, 04:25 pm »
Hi Folks

I think one of the bright sides of future recordings is with the Internet download this is the first time in history we as consumers can connect to the Master Tape and download a first generation copy of such.

The quality of the Master is still critical of course but it certainly reduces the number of steps between the parties and the gear needed to reproduce it and maybe just maybe the ability of quality recordings being appreciated by the listening public will expand and foster better recordings. We can only hope.

James
« Last Edit: 5 Sep 2011, 01:09 pm by James Tanner »

amblin

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #10 on: 4 Sep 2011, 05:33 pm »
Hi Folks

I think one of the bright sides of future recordings is with the Internet download this is the first time in history we as consumers can connect to the Master Tape and download a first generation copy of such.

The quality of the Master is still critical of course but it certainly reduces the number of steps between the parties and the gear needed to reproduce it and maybe just maybe the ability of quality recordings being appreciated by the listening public will expand and foster better  recordings. We can only hope.

James

Indeed. Apart from the technical advantages,  this would also skip the final few steps of the chain--- father tape duplications, then the mother tapes and the stampers.  Which could 'hurt' or 'alter' the audio quality to a point in traditional record publishing.  A friend of mine used to work for EMI said the test pressings that came back from various pressing firms all sounded a bit different to his ears.  He refused to comment on the actual differences but he said they're distinctive enough for him to tell. 

But he's not very optimistic on hi-res digital files either (for now) . Because unless there's some sort of 'impossible to crack' anti-duplication method,  a master that's been released to the general public would mean that all the pirates and copyright dodgers can finally say 'yay! our materials are the same as originals, guaranteed!' .
------
Maybe we'll need some sort of 'alliance' formed by record brands, hardware manufacturers ,music retailers etc.   Which would provide the users a place to buy and download digital files,  encode a high-tech digital cypher to the hi-res master files, then place a huge fine on un-authorized machines and develop a chip or something that goes into the digital players which can be constantly upgraded via online firmware updates, so it'll be nearly impossible to crack and duplicate. Think the PS3, sony's toy, they used similar anti-piracy methods (restrictions on media carriers + disc verification + on-board security chip + constant firmware updates + tame lawyer squads recklessly hunting down hackers),and it worked...it used to be the one and only piracy-free consumer digital electronic product, for almost 5 years. A world record. While Billy the soft-box got cracked in under a week .
« Last Edit: 5 Sep 2011, 11:40 am by amblin »

veloceleste

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #11 on: 5 Sep 2011, 12:53 am »
This is the most rational, succinct discussion of this topic I have ever read.  As stated earlier, there are all the technical details involved in the recording and reproduction that affect the sound, there is the perception of that sound, and finally, there is the taste and preference of the listener.  Two people listening to the same system may agree that the sound is bright, but one may like that quality and the other not like the sound.  That doesn't make either person's preference right or wrong, just different.
However, tastes and preferences can change through exposure to different variables and experiences. 

redbook

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #12 on: 5 Sep 2011, 01:14 am »
  Well said....... :thumb:

HsvHeelFan

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #13 on: 5 Sep 2011, 04:52 am »
Music is a very emotional thing.

Some say it's the universal language.  The amazing thing is how different people react to the music.  Someone else may have the completely opposite reaction that you may have.  The cool thing is that's completely acceptable!

Music can make me happy, sad, reflective or even depressed.  I don't listen to much music that makes me depressed.

Sometimes, I listen for the nuances and hidden detail of music.  Sometimes, I just need to chill and I have a range of recordings that will do that.

If I want to listen to rock and roll music that's very detailed, I'll listen to ELO-Jeff Lynne, the Alan Parsons Project or Pink Floyd.  If I'm not in a rock and roll mood and want lots of stuff going on, I'll pick a large classical work.

As mentioned on some other threads, I tend to favor musical performance over recording performance.  Ideally, I like to have both.

I applaud the effort to get closer to the master tapes.

HsvHeelFan

Quiet Earth

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #14 on: 5 Sep 2011, 03:16 pm »
Great thread you guys! These are all of the things that I've tried to discuss but have never been able to describe without putting my foot in my mouth or offending someone.

Thanks for doing it right.

 :thumb:

lanchile

Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #15 on: 5 Sep 2011, 06:08 pm »
We who buy hifi gear to play recorded music need a similar reality check, a caption reading "This is not music." Meaning that it is recorded music. Not live music, and it never will or can be.

I agree, it will "never" be as live music,no matter how good the speakers or amp are. but audio companies are trying to get their gears to sound as live music as they can. and some are doing an excellent job so far. :thumb:

brucek

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #16 on: 5 Sep 2011, 06:26 pm »
I have never felt that a recording has come even remotely close to live music. It doesn't particularly disappoint me, I just know which I'm listening to.

I could be walking down a busy city street and hear the sound of a piano or guitar coming from an apartment window above me that's only open a few inches and I'll know in a instant that it's live. Why that is, I don't know. Is it perhaps dynamic range - lack of compression?

Still, I strive for the best sound system I can afford, but I know it ain't live....

DaveNote

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Re: "This is Not a Pipe"
« Reply #17 on: 5 Sep 2011, 08:38 pm »
This is the most rational, succinct discussion of this topic I have ever read.  As stated earlier, there are all the technical details involved in the recording and reproduction that affect the sound, there is the perception of that sound, and finally, there is the taste and preference of the listener.  Two people listening to the same system may agree that the sound is bright, but one may like that quality and the other not like the sound.  That doesn't make either person's preference right or wrong, just different.However, tastes and preferences can change through exposure to different variables and experiences.

Excellent elaboration on the issue of preferences, which is why some people like country music, but others prefer rock, and some like both. Some people like tubes, some SS, both of which are preferences. That's great and why there are so many choices in music and gear. What bothers me are those enthusiasts who have a preference and claim it is "the best."

This struck me decades ago when I met a Bose rep in an audio show, who tried to make the case with me that Bose made the best speakers because they were scientifically proven to be the best. I looked around the shop at the other choices of speakers and concluded that either he didn't know what he was talking about or was merely demented. But I've seen that kind of argument made so often and in so many places, it's one of the reasons I started this topic here. Given the responses, I was very pleased not to see the enthusiasts jump in to rant for their preferences.

Dave