[glrickaby]

I have a AT 125LC with a NOS stylus which is mounted on an Dual 1228. I have also been playing,
on the same unit, a AT 7V which is a nude elliptical with a tapered shaft. The 125LC is bonded .
For some reason, the AT7V sounds much better with presence, definition and overall impact,
which is possibly contrary to existing opinion about Line Contact vs elliptical styli? I realize
there are differences in the cartridges themselves with windings etc., and the compliance
is different between the two units. The Dual 1228 tonearm is an early ULM type tone arm
which should respond better to a higher compliance cartridge like the 125LC. What am I
missing here? Why is the AT7V a better overall sounding unit when the reverse should be
true? Is "nude" really better then "bonded", even when the bonded diamond is of a more
advanced cut? Both units are played through a V-LPS preamp which does a very nice job
compared to other preamps in my memory.

[neobop]

Hi GL,
I think you answered your own question. They're different carts. The 125LC looks like it might be the same body as a 120/440, with 3.2K impedance. It might have stronger magnets like the orig 440. I'm really not sure about this, but the 7V is said to be a very listenable cart and found its way into some high end systems.

Do you have the specs, resistance/inductance for these? Also, it might be more critical to have low shunt capacitance on the 125. It should be less than 200pF. It might not be as critical for the 7V. You can try my 140LC stylus if you want.  I didn't really break it in, but it didn't sound that great on my 440. BTW, the 125 stylus should fit the 7V. That might be interesting. If you try it, don't forget to lighten the VTF.
neo

[neobop]

GL,
I forgot to say, the 7V stylus should work on the 125 body if you trim back the wings. The height of the wings prevents it from seating properly on a 120/440 body type. Other than that it should work. When LpGear first brought in the 7V (not intended for US market), they said it was the same as the old Signet TK-7Ea. They've since changed the description.

All things being equal, a nude sq shank is always better than a bonded, even titanium bonded tip. All things are never equal though. Swapping the styli should shed some light on bonded LC vs nude .2 x .7. I suspect the 7V generator is more compatible with your phono stage. 
neo

[BaMorin]

Too many variables coming into play here to address the issue of bonded vs nude.  The main issue with a bonded stylus (of equal diamond cut) would be the bonding would be of higher mass than the nude diamond. But generally this isn't the case due to the amount of goo-pucky needed to secure the nude mount into the cantilever......thus making mass a non-issue. The diamond being bonded to a material doesn't vibrate at a different frequency of the bond material. If it did it would come apart. The resonate frequencies of diamond and what they are generally bonded to are well above any frequency they could possibly encounter during playback.

[glrickaby]

Interesting, the AT125LC does fit the AT7 body and does sound better but not quite the "wow" factor as with the nude
oem stylus. The Japanese instructions show a 3.0k(earphone symbol)(1kHz) and a 650-earphone symbol. 100-200pF.
Believe the 650 relates to the older Shures in the same range. My conclusion is a .2 x .7 nude, sq shank tapered
stylus is somewhat better than a bonded LC, though not by much,in the same cartridge body. Call it the sizzle on the steak.
Also, from the finish, have to believe the AT7 Body and internals are probably higher quality than what is essentially an at120
body marked 125LC in a plain black finish.

[neobop]

GL,
I think the conclusion might only be valid for the 7V. I assume the Japanese instructions are for the 7V. The earphone symbol is ohms and coil impedance is rated at 1KHz. So the impedance is 3Kohm, as opposed to 3.2Kohm for the 125. If the 650 also had the ohm symbol, it might be DC resistance. It seems like a big spread. Inductance would be in mH. They both have the same 5mV output. I don't know if the body of the 125 is the same as the 440. The orig 440 OCC had 5mV out with stronger magnets. The MLa is 4mV. I was under the impression that the 120 and 440 bodies were the same. That now seems incorrect. The output of the 120 is 5mV, not 4. I doubt if there is any difference in the magnets. The 125 might be closer to the 120.

The 7V must have more inductance as a result of more windings to get that output. Greater inductance tends to sound mellow like a M97 or a 681. AT seems to be making an effort to voice their carts more mellow, and tips with less aggressive profiles are a part of that. Newer carts like the 33EV and the OC9III are evidence of that.

Nude square shank tips are usually higher quality grain oriented diamonds. Very little glue is needed to mount in an aluminum cantilever which has a hole to accept the tip. Even with exotic cantilevers, the cantilever itself  contributes much more to tip mass. With the same cantilever, diamond quality and polish might make a bigger difference.
neo

[BaMorin]

Nude square shank tips are usually higher quality grain oriented diamonds. Very little glue is needed to mount in an aluminum cantilever which has a hole to accept the tip. Even with exotic cantilevers, the cantilever itself  contributes much more to tip mass. With the same cantilever, diamond quality and polish might make a bigger difference.
neo

I don't disagree. As total effective tip mass is calculated, generally the diamond and it's bond accounts for  less than 10% of the total. The cantilever makes up a good portion of the rest. In most cases the generating element comes in 2nd of total ETM. Grain orientation has zero to do with playback. It's "need" is to help ensure the diamond doesn't shatter while going through the grinding, polishing work. Being square shank aids in installing it in the cantilever. Time is money.

[glrickaby]

Only mH is 500@1kHz.  650 Ohm is shown above
the 47 Ohm, 27dB must be stereo separation. Also
shows 7.0 x 10-6cm/dyne and 35 x 10-6 cm/dyne which
must be compliance. 15-25,000 Frequency Response
which is the same as the AT125LC. Definitely sounds
more open with more clearness and definition than the
AT 125LC whether the LC is on its own body or on the
AT7V Body. The AT7V actually sounds similar to the
Ortofon MC-10 Super which I have mounted on my
Rega 3/2000 which is quite a compliment. Both
played through the V-LPS preamp. What you say
about diamond quality makes sense as AT would
obviously go higher on a nude square shank,
particularly in their home market. Still, its about
as close a comparison as I can make with an
LC stylus from the same maker. The AT125LC
sounds very good until you actually play the
AT7V which kind of blows it away. Possibly,
the AT440 would not compare well either as
the difference there would be a nude LC but
still more or less the AT125LC body. I had a
440MLa and it did not make my hair tingle
like this AT7V so I sold it. Not so sure the
AT125LC doesn't sound better. Also wondering
why my old DUAL 1228 makes all these sound
so good! Must be getting better on set up in
my old age. Now on to the Grados, AT13Ea,
Precept PC220,Goldring 2300 etc., will it
never end! Final conclusion: Ellipticals,
particularly .2 or .3, generally sound more
mellow, though lacking ultimate definition
than the LC,Shibata or Geiger types but
for some reason, I gravitate back to them.
Perhaps they fit well on my marginally
audiophile equipment.....

[neobop]

I don't know if you've been reading the SAE-1000 thread. It's a good example of a cart with different tips. Everything else is identical. One has a LT and one has a .4 x .7. This example is a bit more extreme. Of course the elliptical is more bass oriented and the LT is more detailed. Nobody talked about loading which could change the response balance, just like the 440, to site an exaggerated example.

I think the 7V is an example of excellent voicing by AT. Tip/cantilever resonance is designed to compliment the electrical output to get nice response. The old Signet line by AT had some very listenable carts and maybe it is a resurrection of a TK-7Ea. LpGear still sells it for $129. That SAE for $199 also seems like a great buy. Many HOMC have high tip mass due to the coils being part of the moving system. Both versions of the 1000 have .3mg which is admirably low. In this case the different tips makes no difference. The spec is the same for both. There's another inexpensive cart, a LOMC that's said to be a bargain, the AT-F3III. It too has a .2 x .7 and tapered alum cantilever - $175. So many carts, so little time.
neo