[bacobits1]

Wilson,
Thanks for all of that.
Great shots and explanation of all I had to ask.
That 901 mounting looks precarious, but if it works that is what matters.

Would one of these work? This is what I have on the DL103R.
http://www.cabezon.eu/product_info.php?products_id=111

Your picts sure show that 901 down in the back, quite a bit. I'm not so sure that will give you the correct geometry. It screws my head up looking at it. 
   
Again, what ever works for your setup great.

D


 

[watercourse]

D,
The 901 mounting is solid - I can't budge it by twisting it back and forth. The cartridge needs to be solidly mated with the tonearm, loose is bad. The Grungebuster material grips both the headshell and cartridge, and this also helps to adjust azimuth - by differentially tightening one bolt more than the other.
When I adjusted the VTA of the 501, it surprised me to hear that it needed to be so far down in back. I searched other sites, like VE, Steve Hoffman, Agon, and was relieved to learn that most if not all Shelter users (501 and 901) had the same findings. Appearances can be deceiving, it's what it sounds like that counts.
PS I ordered the double pulley and motor isolation base from Michael Lim, but no word on when it will ship.
W

[bacobits1]

Wilson,
That is the last 2 upgrades you can possibly do to that table as far as I know. There are no more. 
We are both nuts!

Be patient on shipments from Malaysia. About 3 weeks at least. The Double Pulley is worth it. You have to take some picts on that motor Isolation once you set it up. Michael does not have clear good pictures on his blog of that. Also, If the motor is independent and not attached you will not have to shorten the Pulley as I did. You would probably have the capability of raising the whole motor up or down to center those belts.

I will do the same thing as far as research on a particular item that I purchase.
Somewhere, someone already has experience with it.
When I said "precarious" I meant more unusual. You really don't have to torque the screws to hold the cartridge firmly. I don't, here.

The sound is what matters.
Keep us posted on Michaels upgrades when they arrive.

Den

[neobop]

Here is another VTA adjuster I considered, but I don't think it is "on the fly" adjustable.

http://www.cabezon.eu/product_info.php?products_id=120

I would never adjust the tonearm on the fly anyway for fear of zinging it across the platter.

This one also has the height starting pretty high because of the structure to mount your arm on it. More than the 4 MM total I use.
My thinking is, starting too high creates problems with the VTA to begin with. It can't be low enough to start at level.
I use the 2> 2 MM spacers and it is perfect now at 4MM. Both mechanisms look to be both over 4MM.
What do you do then? You can't really or don't want to change the height of the platter?? I do have a tapped 3g spacer on my DL103R at the cartridge end.

So  I decided against both of these VTA adjusters for the 3 point mounting. 
2" Stainless screws with nuts through the plinth works very nice for the sound.

I like the way things sound now, but probably like the old simpler Rega post/ nut mounts better.

As always, YMMV.

Pete is a pretty stand up guy and I know he would let you return anything that didn't work out.

Let me ask this. Wilson in your last pict is that the lowest setting you have on the arm mount? It will go down no further? That plate has to be tapped for the  special length screws to tighten and not go through it so they would not stick out stopping it.


D

I thought VTA on the fly was part of the appeal. I have that on other arms and it's no problem using it while the record is playing. The Isokinetik products seem more sensible to me, especially if on the fly isn't feasible. Using shims to get the height is part of the original design. I guess that's OK if you don't sometimes want to change the height for different records. Then I think it helps to have an assortment of different mats.

Wilson, you take nice pics, never the less, I must say that your cart shims look a mess. What's the point of this in the first place? Why don't you leave the height w/o an adjuster and just get the angle you want? You have it like that and sometimes use the adjuster?

It's a failing of these arms and the design that there is no provision for arm height. I can understand it for someone spending less than $300 on a budget model, but in the long run they'll spend it on improvements. What's the route to nirvana? Re-wire, counterweight, arm stub and VTA. I wonder if Roy Gandy owns any aftermarket companies.
neo

[watercourse]

Den - you are absolutely right on both counts - maxxed out mods and being nuts! 

I do have a couple of additions: 1" acrylic platform and 3.5" maple platform. Both are very nice: the maple is a tad warmer, perhaps a slight emphasis in midbass, but an across the board smoothness and organic quality; the acrylic perhaps slightly less bass, and a leaner, but still smooth/organic sound - maybe a bit more cohesive than the maple, but very slightly. This was true whether the acrylic sat on the maple or MDF; the differences were consistent. MDF is nowhere near as good as either: lacking body, loss of soundstaging, not interesting sounding. All platforms rested on Herbie's Tenderfeet. I think the final choice depends on preference as well as how the rest of your system sounds.

But an important contributor, regardless of platform, were the Herbie's Turntable Isoball Footers. I tried both platforms with the stock Rega feet, and lost the smooth and organic quality, the treble rolled off, and soundstage receded to behind the speakers. It accentuated the PRAT and had a more lean sound, but it was not analytical or cold. I'm not saying the P5 sounded bad at all using the stock feet, but the Herbie's TT footers just have a good balanced sound that is hard to fault. Maybe it is simply a sound that I prefer. I was trying to downsize all the tweaks I have, but the Herbie's are staying in.

I think I will do a comparison with the stock platter again at some point, and also post my findings.

[bacobits1]

Roy Gandy does not even believe in VTA. You know that if you were in the business. The only reason he sells any shims at all is because of all the OEM arms out there and there are a lot of them.
All the upgrades comes from this too because it is used on all different tables. All the upgrades can be purchased at reasonable cost and you can buy in increments.
I bet Groovetracre's machining is better than Rega's.

I'm not compulsive enough to change the VTA on all the different thickness of vinyl out there. So VTA on the fly is not for me.

I have never wedged a cartridge nor would I, to fix an upgrade.
If it works for Wilson that is great, he is fine with it.

Yes, I changed the feet to BDR #3 cones and bases, on 50lbs granite , on Herbies Ebony balls in Isocups, on glass shelf.

My wife's elderly aunt was over last night and wanted a quick listen, her jaw dropped.   
No, I do not have any "Monkeys"!
Oh, I forgot I'm elderly too.


D

[watercourse]

@ Neobop - the shims in the back allow a user to have to less adjustment for tonearm height. The concept is that adjusting VTA changes the tracking angle from flat to + or -. If you start off with a negative angle, you don't need to raise or lower your tonearm as much.
The fact that the Shelters like to ride low in back simply accentuates the angle that the cartridge body is in with relation to the stylus. Looks ain't everything.
Well, Rega wants to make hassle-free products that sound good, and they don't approve of any changes to the stock setup other than what they sell themselves. The P5 sounded great out of the box, however, with minor adjustments (adding tonearm spacers), a P5 owner can explore outside that small subset of cartridges that are designed for the Rega arms. With experimentation into other cartridges with different compliance values and SRAs, a Rega owner can quickly find that there are additional adjustments that you need to maximize the performance of different cartridges. It's at this fork in the road that some people decide to stay on the "convenience" path, and explore no further, and others, like Bacobits and me, decide to see how far the turntable can take us.
When you consider how much other manufacturers charge for their "approved" upgrades, I don't think that the Rega aftermarket mods/tweaks can be considered outrageous, at least not IMHO.

[watercourse]

I have never wedged a cartridge nor would I, to fix an upgrade.

D - not sure I would call this a fix to the VTAF - I wedged the 501 prior to getting the VTAF. It's just now more pronounced an angle because I am lowering the back for two reasons now: getting the SRA right, and minimizing my need to lower the tonearm height. I wonder if owners of turntables with built-in VTA adjustment might also wedge their Shelters?
Glad your system sounds so good to folks other than other hifi tweakers. Both my brothers-in-law worship the P5 too. If I ever move on from the P5, there's going to be a family feud over it.
W

[watercourse]

I thought VTA on the fly was part of the appeal. I have that on other arms and it's no problem using it while the record is playing.

Yeah, maybe it is to some, but I'm like Bacobits, more set and forget. I'm not lazy, I just don't want to fiddle all the time just to enjoy music.
I did try in my earlier posts to distinguish between the benefits of the mount and the VTA adjustment. The different mount produces better bass and tracking performance; the VTA adjustment has other benefits in soundstaging, imaging, and tonal balance. So, there are other benefits (and ones that frankly, I find more critical to my enjoyment) even if you don't use the VTA on the fly.
A friend of mine has a VPI, and I think it sounds great. He does change VTA relatively easily on the fly with his table, and I would say that the VTAF is not as easy on my P5 - you have to take it slow and easy, and be careful. However, this may come down other factors, such as the plinth mass, tonearm mounting method and isolation from plinth, etc. rather than the VTA adjustment method or hardware. In other words, probably hard to fault the VTAF for the crowded real estate on the P5, which is a light, unsuspended table. If you are the type to want to change VTA relatively often, then you'd probably move on from the P5 as you won't be able to scratch that itch as easily as on other tables.

[neobop]

Roy Gandy does not even believe in VTA. You know that if you were in the business. The only reason he sells any shims at all is because of all the OEM arms out there and there are a lot of them.
All the upgrades comes from this too because it is used on all different tables. All the upgrades can be purchased at reasonable cost and you can buy in increments.
I bet Groovetracre's machining is better than Rega's.

I'm not compulsive enough to change the VTA on all the different thickness of vinyl out there. So VTA on the fly is not for me.

I have never wedged a cartridge nor would I, to fix an upgrade.
If it works for Wilson that is great, he is fine with it.

VTA/SRA isn't a religion or a belief system. It has to do with the angle of the cutterhead and the angle of the stylus in the groove to reproduce the information cut in that record. Believe me, if I were still in the business I'd have no trouble selling against Rega, or selling aftermarket "fixes". First and foremost seems to be re-wiring the arm. If you're going to offer an arm already wired, why not do it right in the first place? The logic of his approach escapes me.

You say, "I'm not compulsive enough to change the VTA on all the different thickness of vinyl out there. So VTA on the fly is not for me."

Some cartridges and systems are more revealing of SRA differences than others. More importantly, some people are more sensitive to this than others. Call me compulsive, but if the SRA isn't right, it doesn't sound right. Why are we playing records in the first place? I guess it's a compulsion.

The on the fly feature is one of the main selling points of the VTAF. The fact that neither of you guys use it doesn't really speak to it's viability, which seems questionable.  I really did read about problems using it - jerky motion and azimuth going awry etc. Maybe these people didn't have it set up properly. There seems to be many who like it. The only reason I even care is because I almost bought one for an arm that I now think is ill suited for it.
neo
 

[bacobits1]

Of course I can hear most of the VTA changes, it's just not worth the change to me on every play.
VTA/SRA, overhang, is a necessity on any cartridge arm combination as far as I'm concerned.

Rega does do stupid things. Wiring on the entry arms, plastic Sub Platter and now those wood screws holding the tonearm, I'll throw the VTA problem in too.

Rega as a company does pretty damn good.

The tables do sound good out of the box. Amazing.
I have had 2 other Rega 3's in the way past and just enjoyed the hell out of them. I didn't do much on the 3's except for wiring, VTA, and Heavyweight. That was also before the higher models came out. I went back to Rega, and souped the hell out of this P5 and enjoying it.

I think I enjoy the challenge of setting a table up and pulling as much info as you can out of the vinyl. The mechanics involved also amazes me, all that info in grooved vinyl.   

D

[watercourse]

@ Neobop - It's a good thing you didn't get the VTAF then. I don't know what your setup is, but it seems you've determined that it would not work for you and your Rega arm.
You raise the issue that Pete Riggle tried to sell you and Hernani his VTAF unit even though there are problems with it, and that's good for you to express that. I for one don't see any of the "known" issues that you mention - azimuth changing, instability, jerkiness. Honestly, I can't even see how azimuth would change unless the entire pillar/bushing is able to shift within the hole - and that is a symptom of an incorrect installation of the VTAF. You would understand what I mean if you saw the simple construction and low tolerances of the VTAF. It just moves up and down, there is no lateral movement unless it's caused by a wayward finger or by jostling the turntable. And it certainly does not raise the tonearm at an angle to affect azimuth, unless this is an installation-dependent issue, meaning they effed it up and need to read the instructions again and fix it.
It is important to distinguish for people wondering about the VTAF system what problems are inherent in the system and what may be caused by other factors.
So I guess you dodged a bullet there. I don't have enough understanding of your setup and with installing VTAF on it to be able to help you out, but I tried to with Hernani, because I do think it is a worthwhile mod. I would say that if on your TT the tonearm mount is isolated from the plinth (unlike on the P5), that this would likely be a superior VTAF setup and yield superior results than with plinth-mounted arms - simply because the movements caused by rotating the wheel would not transfer to the plinth, and likely because you'd have more space for your fingers to operate the wheel.
Bacobits doesn't have the VTAF. He is satisfied with improving on the stock 3-point mount by drilling through the plinth and using better mounting hardware. I had also done this mod myself prior to installing the VTAF. He now uses the Rega spacers to adjust VTA specific to his cartridge needs.
I'm posting my VTAF experience for those people who might be wondering about whether it would work with the P5/RB700 system. When I first was considering purchasing the VTAF, I asked people in multiple boards what their experiences were with the P5, and I got no responses. So in my experience, it does work not only to adjust VTA, but as a much improved mounting system over the stock one (and improved over the drill-through mod as well).
Whether or not I adjust VTA with every LP I play is immaterial to judge the utility of the VTAF. The fact that I can - and couldn't without VTAF - is material. And the fact that I can would also be true for anyone who installs the VTAF on their P5.

[watercourse]

Would one of these work? This is what I have on the DL103R.
http://www.cabezon.eu/product_info.php?products_id=111

Hey D, it might work, but I can't tell - there's not much info there. So I'm not sure if it would work better than what I've got, although it might look better. I'm also not enamored of the idea of superglueing it to my cart - I'd need one for each Shelter. Do you use it? How thick is it?

[neobop]

Maybe you missed the part of my post where I described the arm I was considering. It's a Sonus Formula 4 unipivot. It's very light and has eff mass around 4g (stock).




I don't own a Rega arm. This would have been a custom model. The platform that holds the cueing device would have to be extended forward about 1.5" to use the guide in front. I had my doubts and when Pete told me about the height issue and shims, I decided against it. I no longer use the Sota table. The armboard would have been at conventional height relative to the platter. Although I can drop the armboard on most tables, it requires some work and I felt that it was inappropriate for this arm. Maybe if I rewire the arm externally and fill the pillar with lead, it might be worth a try, I don't know.
neo

[watercourse]

Nice looking arm. Seems like filling it with lead might not play to its strengths, but I'm not that familiar with that arm and its possibilities.
I'm sure you saw the photos of the different arms using the VTAF system, but alas, can't help with real-life experience in your case.
W