Zu Superfly Speakers and Damping Factor

trackball02 · « **on:** 20 Apr 2011, 07:12 pm »

I'm a novice and now have Zu Superlfys amplified by a Van Alstine Ultravalve, which sounds fantastic. I'm now interested in swapping out the Ultravalve for a SS amp during the hot summer months.

From Zu's website: " [Superfly] is a 16 ohm loudspeaker, best matched with tube amplifiers. However mainstream receivers and digital amps also match well. Solid-state amps with high damping factors are typically not a good match with Soul Superfly."

Zu did not give a value for an acceptable damping factor.

Do all digital amps have low damping factors? From anyone's experience, what SS amps should I avoid? Am I being too cautious in amp selection?

My budget is up to $2000, new or used would be fine. These are quite efficient speakers (101 dBSPL@1watt, 1 meter) so I really do not need a lot of watts. Anyone with recommendations?

roscoeiii · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Apr 2011, 07:33 pm »

They may not meet your requirements for a cool amp in the summer, but I would look into what the damping factors on the FirstWatt F1 and F2 & F3 are. My favorite SS amps on my full range driver system (12" Audio Nirvana drivers, 8 ohms). I loved the Aleph 30 too, EXCEPT that it overdamped the speakers in my system.

Might want to give Zu a call for recs on a low damping factor SS amp.

With speakers that efficient, you could also go with a lower power, lower heat tube amp like one of the MiniWatt amps.

I'd also love to hear your impression of the Ultravalve with the Soul Superflys....

DARTH AUDIO · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Apr 2011, 07:42 pm »

Quote from: trackball02 on 20 Apr 2011, 07:12 pm

I'm a novice and now have Zu Superlfys amplified by a Van Alstine Ultravalve, which sounds fantastic. I'm now interested in swapping out the Ultravalve for a SS amp during the hot summer months.

From Zu's website: " [Superfly] is a 16 ohm loudspeaker, best matched with tube amplifiers. However mainstream receivers and digital amps also match well. Solid-state amps with high damping factors are typically not a good match with Soul Superfly."

Zu did not give a value for an acceptable damping factor.

Do all digital amps have low damping factors? From anyone's experience, what SS amps should I avoid? Am I being too cautious in amp selection?

My budget is up to $2000, new or used would be fine. These are quite efficient speakers (101 dBSPL@1watt, 1 meter) so I really do not need a lot of watts. Anyone with recommendations?

Turn your air down and spend the money on your AC bill. Sounds like a great combo. I tried going SS for the summer once. It only lasted a week. Sent the SS amp back. Couldn't live without the tube amps, so I lowered the AC and paid my electric bill without hesitation.

Gopher · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Apr 2011, 08:19 pm »

I don't really recommend the First Watts, at least not the F1 or F1J (or F2 likely). I am curious about the F3 though... They did an OK job of driving my Superflys but were not special. I tried an Aleph clone owned by a fellow ACer and it was better then the F1/F1J and I liked it a good bit at the time, but my expectations and realizations of what these speakers can do has been raised.

My favorite solid state amplification for these speakers by a significant margin has been the Redgum RGi120. Its a little known Australian integrated flying under the radar and it is fantastic. I'm borrowing Sunnydaze's for a second time right now as I debate purchasing it as my Summer alternative as my 845 SET puts off a lot of heat.

You'll find a few very positive reviews but not much buzz on it. Trust me though--it is outstanding. I've witnessed it best far more expensive SS (Pass, Plinus, Monarchy, Alchemist, etc.) and I far prefer it to Atma-sphere for the Zus.

213cobra (Phil) gives a number of low heat tube/ss options for driving the Superflys in my audiogon thread. If you haven't already checked it out, I suggest you do so. There is a lot of great information in it, though it has grown quite lengthy.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Apr 2011, 08:27 pm »

Quote from: Gopher on 20 Apr 2011, 08:19 pm

I don't really recommend the First Watts, at least not the F1 or F1J (or F2 likely). I am curious about the F3 though... They did an OK job of driving my Superflys but were not special. I tried an Aleph clone owned by a fellow ACer and it was better then the F1/F1J and I liked it a good bit at the time, but my expectations and realizations of what these speakers can do has been raised.

My favorite solid state amplification for these speakers by a significant margin has been the Redgum RGi120. Its a little known Australian integrated flying under the radar and it is fantastic. I'm borrowing Sunnydaze's for a second time right now as I debate purchasing it as my Summer alternative as my 845 SET puts off a lot of heat.

You'll find a few very positive reviews but not much buzz on it. Trust me though--it is outstanding. I've witnessed it best far more expensive SS (Pass, Plinus, Monarchy, Alchemist, etc.) and I far prefer it to Atma-sphere for the Zus.

213cobra (Phil) gives a number of low heat tube/ss options for driving the Superflys in my audiogon thread. If you haven't already checked it out, I suggest you do so. There is a lot of great information in it, though it has grown quite lengthy.

But am I remembering correctly that the FirstWatts you tried were clones? In my experience, FirstWatt clones do not come near the performance of a Pass-built FirstWatt. DIY FirstWatt amps might not have the parts or construction quality of a Pass-built FirstWatt, and certainly won't have been fine-tuned by Nelson Pass (he has an article on the importance of this process on the FirstWatt website IIRC).

Not that I have heard Pass-built FirstWatts on Soul Superflys, BUT I have compared DIY FirstWatts compared to Pass-built FirstWatts. BIG difference. And great thing about the Pass-built FirstWatts is that Reno HiFi has a great return policy if you don't like them in your system. Mark at Reno is a great guy.

Gopher · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Apr 2011, 08:50 pm »

Very good point, Roscoe. I was told by the person who piqued my curiosity about the F3 (a Zu Def 2.0 owner) that he noted a difference between an F3 clone and a Pass built unit.

Mine had the nicer parts and plitron transformer, but who knows it may not be fair to compare. Either way though, the Redgum is the best SS I've heard including several other NON-clone, big boys and it doesn't even belong to me--was just a loaner (i.e. I've got no emotional attachment to hype). Berto and Sunnydaze heard it with my Superflys.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Apr 2011, 09:02 pm »

Thanks for the clarification. Knowing how many amps you have tried with your Soul Superflys that is a strong recommendation for the Redgum. Will have to see if I can check one of those out (especially considering how much I am enjoying the Atmasphere S-30 I got from you).

And to tie this communication back to the thread topic a bit more, it was my experience with the high damping factor Aleph 30 that led me to search out a low damping factor replacement. And it was time for me to try out tubes. All of which led me to the S30 (which some sonic advantages in terms of speed and bass due to its OTL design). And my speakers do share some characteristics with the Superflys, namely are large diameter full range driver (although 8 rather than the Zu's 16 ohms).

trackball02 · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Apr 2011, 10:54 pm »

Thanks for all of the great comments so far, this is a great place to get helpful information.

Concerning FirstWatt amps, do they tend to run somewhat warm? How hot do they get compared to a tube amp?

The Redgum looks interesting. I think that their 35w integrated is all the power that I need for the Superflys. I find it strange that it has two volume knobs for each channel. Also, what happens if the amp needs servicing?

I contemplated getting a Miniwatt tube amp, but I think I’ll be disappointed compared to my Ultravalve.

As far as the Superfly and AVA Ultravalve combination goes, I love it especially with the AVA Avastar preamp. I’m not an audiophile with years of experience in listening to various equipment, and this is the first tube equipment I ever owned. Suffice to say that it puts a smile on my face every time I come home from a long day’s work and fire up the system. The sound is quite outstanding, from the lows to the highs, three dimensional just plain fun to listen to for hours on end.

Anyone have recommendation for a digital amp, or should I stay away from them all together?

roscoeiii · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Apr 2011, 11:13 pm »

FirstWatts are Class A amps, and yes they run hot. I mentioned them mostly to suggest amps whose damping factor you might want to look at. F2 or F2J would likely be the least warm of those amps, but possibly hotter than you want.

I will have to let digital amp owners speak up about them. But if they don't pipe in I'll offer some suggestions of digital that seem to be highly regarded (from reviews and threads I have read, not personal experience).

Gopher · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 01:09 am »

The super hot F1/F1J clones are what inspired my amp rolling adventure. Put off too much darn heat, made me search for another solution. Ironically I arrived at a much hotter 845 tube...

I am kicking myself for passing up an opporunity to steal a used RGi35. The owner of the RGi120 I am presently borrowing thinks the little guy was even more sweet and refined. You've got competition if a used one comes available!

Gopher · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 02:08 pm »

I'm not sure why this was moved to enclosures, but I don't think you'll get much additional feedback in this forum.

trackball02 · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 02:21 pm »

Agree. I'm a newbe. I acquired my equipment about 3 months ago, and still learning.

Do you know why the owner of the RGi120 feels that the RGi35 might be better? Their website states the the damping factor is greater than 150. Is that a typical value for this type of amp?

Gopher · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 02:41 pm »

Not sure as to norm, but here is an excerpt from an email with my buddy who owned both at the same time.

"It's funny cause it's quite a small and unassuming looking piece of gear.
Almost laughable to us "hi-enders". But the performance isn't. Like I told you,
I had the smaller Redgum (35 wpc) teamed with a pair of DeVore Gibbons monitors and a modest
cdp in my bedroom system and the sound was to die for. Incredibly fluid and warm, yet still detailed,
and full of emotion. Perfect for relaxed bedroom system.

And yes, the smaller one sounds very very similar. I think it may sound even better!"

sunnydaze · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 03:44 pm »

Since I'm the owner of the two Redgums that Fred / Gopher mentions, I figured I'd chime in here. I've heard the RGi 120 on his Zu speakers and thought the combo was spectacular. Synergy was so strong that I thought it even rivalled his Shindo preamp / 845 SET amp combo.

I don't post much here so my priorities/preferences are probably unknown. Been at it for over 15 years and I'm a hardcore tube guy. I have owned p/p, UL, SET and OTL....from Atma-Spere, to Dodd, to Manley, to VTL, to Prima Luna, to Kora, to ASL, etc. etc. And I've borrowed many others over the years.

There is not much in the way of SS that can satisfy me in the long run. The Redgum + Zu combo does not fall into that camp. I have owned the amp for several years, have tried it on at least 15 speakers and it has always been at least good to VG on everything. But the synergy I heard on his Zu's was something special. Very liquid, inviting and smooth with great punch, speed, textue, nuance and transparency. All would be for naught w/o the elusive musicality and involvement factors, and they were present in spades.

I got the smaller RGi-35 first for my bedroom system....liked it so much, snapped up the first 120 that appeared on AG. Hard for me to directly compare the two, since I never heard them both on the same pair of speakers. I can say they are both excellent with the same "house" sound. As far as servicing, I would not worry about it. They are well made and bullet-proof. No glitches, noise or anything operationally untoward in the years I have owned them.

Listen to Fred, he knows what he is saying about the Zu / Redgum synergy. I only listened about an hour at his place, but it took me less than 2 minutes to know something special was going on. He has spent many hours in front of the combo, and he, like me, is a hardcore tube guy. Also like me he is experienced and has owned a fair amt of good gear, so that we are both so impressed speaks highly of the Redgum in general, and its synergy w Zu specifically.

PS: In my system the RGi-120 has easily beat some highly regarded SS: Monarchy SM-70 Pro monos, Rawson built Pass Aleph clone monos, Plinius SA-100, McCormack, Butler 2250 (a pair run in bridged mono), and several more I have forgotten. Speakers are Sunny H2W10.

http://www.stereotimes.com/speak101007.shtml

Gopher · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 04:45 pm »

Out of curiosity, did you ever compare your SA-100 to the Plinius 8200 MKII? Prior to the Redgum that was the best SS integrated I'd heard/owned. Usually I'd assume the standalone would get the nod, but the Redgum has me thinking twice with respect to integrateds.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 05:28 pm »

Quote from: Gopher on 22 Apr 2011, 04:45 pm

Out of curiosity, did you ever compare your SA-100 to the Plinius 8200 MKII? Prior to the Redgum that was the best SS integrated I'd heard/owned. Usually I'd assume the standalone would get the nod, but the Redgum has me thinking twice with respect to integrateds.

The SA-100 was in my system for coupla weeks, borrowed from a friend. I've never heard the 8200.

To this point the only SS that has beaten the Redgum 120i in my system is the Alchemist Forseti APD20A Mk2 "Signature" amp teamed with a YS Audio / Audio Experience A2 Balanced line stage (connected via Morrow MA-3 XLR IC). This combo is sooo friggin good it rivals many tube based systems I've owned.

BTW folks, incredible preamp, and not just for the money!

trackball02 · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 Apr 2011, 08:37 pm »

sunnydaze, thanks for your advice and your first hand experience with the Redgum and Zu.

Gopher · « **Reply #17 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 01:45 am »

trackball,

You aren't the one in queue ahead of me for the RGi35 on audiogon are you? Lol. Next time I'll bite my lip on recommendations until I secure one for myself.

I'm really hoping to hear back from the seller that the person ahead of me flakes... I'd like to compare it to the RGi120 on my Superflys and keep the winner. If the 35 were adequate and even sweeter, I'd be ahead of the game saving some coin too.

We shall see.

trackball02 · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 07:20 pm »

Gopher,
I was not aware that there is on up for sale on Audigon. Thanks for the tip

Actually, I hope you get it so that you can report back on how it sounds with the Superflys. Don't you think that 35 watts will be sufficient?

Gopher · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Apr 2011, 08:47 pm »

I did get it. The person ahead of me ended up disappearing.

Sure, I think 35 watts will be sufficient to drive the speakers, but it doesn't mean more power wouldn't be beneficial. I've driven them with as little as 10watts into 8ohms (translates to 5 into 16 I believe) so this should be just fine. I do feel the speakers open up a bit with more power, but 35 is probably the safe range.

If the RGi35 is sweeter and doesn't give up a ton in terms of drive I think it will be a knockout. I suspected it may have at first, but my 27 watt 845 SETs don't give up any drive to the 120 watt Redgum.

On a side note, I also bought an F3 clone to try with my Superflys as a potential summer amp (though rawsons get hot). Will be interesting comparing the Shindo driven Firstwatt to the standalone Redgum.