[Demarche]

I've got a neophyte type question that I hope the collecteive experince of this cirlce can help me with.

The question of choice that I’m interested in is the starting point. How do you decide which tubes (brands, model, new v NOS) to start with to test them in your system?

I realize that budget plays apart. But it what about other factors. How do you know where to start and what you are going to expect to hear based on the selection you made. For example, I'll use 6SN7s since they are what I use in my preamp. What makes you choose Sylivania, RCA, GE, Tung Sol, GT, GTA, GTB, WGT, the list goes on?

I’ve read some info on what some of these tubes may “sound” like but I haven’t found much available to help me figure out where to start. Is it all about rolling the dice so to speak and just picking a couple and see/hear what happens?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[JohnR]

I'm not a tube roller and so therefore probably the wrong person to answer the question... but since I'm here, there aren't any electrical characteristics that I'm aware of that would help you choose which tubes to try in advance. You have to rely on reports from other people... bearing in mind that effects will vary depending on the circuit.

As an aside, it occurred to me recently that "circuit rolling" might be a more effective way to alter the sound of a component e.g. changing the tube's operating point.

[eclein]

I'm new to the ways of the tube myself and have found reading info here about different tube manufacturers is a good place to start, then you just have to jump in. Depending on your setup you may experience a totally different type of sound than others using the same tube, even within the same size and same manufacturer the sound can differ. I find that in general most of the time descriptions of different sounds hold up when that tube is tried out. The guys here will be glad to help in whatever way they can...just ask which is the best 6SN7?? Have fun, its a blast...

[Berto]

Great question Demarche. Esp since we all start out clueless and overwelmed by the amount of tube choices.

Best too talk to people who have the  same gear /experience w/rolling. I learned alot following the Modwright tube rolling thread on a/c when I wanted the best sound for my Transporter.  My orig amp was unique so just read what tube preferences people preferred (online) Although used market can be risky I was always able to get most if not all of my money back when the tubes were not to my liking.     


In regards to 6SN7s, my final conclusion after trying many (ncluding the expensive NOS Tung Sol round plates from 1944) Are hands down the Black Treasure CV181s which is a drop in replacement for the 6SN7. But always ask the OEM if that particular tube you want to try is compatible. Funny how people always say there solid state equipment sounds so good it's tube like well i'm gonna say the Black Treasures sound so good there solid state like.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I have a tube DAC and preamp and have found that I can easily change the sound characteristics such as tone, resolution, transparency, sound stage, bass, etc. with changing tubes.

I would start by critiqueing your system and find what you like and dislike about the sound and then read reviews about tubes and how they have changed the sound in other systems.  Then you have a place to start.  Just beware that they may not sound the same in your system.

I prefer NOS tubes in general as there is more to choose from and I have found that in general NOS tubes sound better.  If you find a pair of NOS tubes that you really like, I suggest you then buy a second pair in case a tube fails or wears out after 3K-5K hours of use.  NOS tubes are disappearing fast as tube gear has made a nice come back in the audio world.

I use 6CG7 tubes and have gone through 6 different manufacturers to finally get the sound that I like.  It's easy to get caught up in obsessing about tubes to get that audio nirvana.

[bside123]

I have some tube equipment, and my approach to "tube rolling" has been such: First I made sure that I really knew my system inside and out - sound characteristics, nuances, etc. This is important in order to have a base line and a personal reference. After being completely confident that you can rely on your memory of your perceptions with the current configuration of equipment, wires, accessories, speaker placement, etc. (all which effect the sound), you're ready for tube rolling.

As you switch out the tubes, you should be able to hear differences almost immediately... with some tubes and their derivations more so than others. After I felt I really knew the characteristics of my system, I began reading about tube varieties and what others' felt they had experienced with those different varieties. All the while I know, that because of my system's synergy, I may get different results. I then foraged out to buy tubes that had some "well known" sound characteristics for issues such as: speed, detail, warmth, air, slam, whatever, etc. (RCA, Tung Sol, Telefunken, Amperex, etc.)

There is a vast selection very high quality, inexpensive, cost effective tubes that cross the spectrum of sound characteristics. Don't spend a lot of money. Then the rest of the journey is all up to listening and more listening. You have the reference of your original system; change the tubes and make some notes. Listen. Go back to the reference. Listen again. Change the tubes to another "flavor" and repeat.

This has been my process, and it has produced some surprising results. For one, more expensive and exotic "NOS, Vintage" tubes of the well sought after variety are not ALWAYS better. For example, I replaced a pair of very high-end and somewhat rare Telefunken ECC88s with a pair of $35 6H23, cryo treated Russian tubes in one of my CDPs. I used to LOVE the Telefunkens, and now... I don't want to put them back in nor stop listening to the 30 dollar Russian tubes....  Good luck. It's all great fun and discovery.

[jazzcourier]

Yes,the price and availability of NOS tubes seem to be going in the opposite directions-price up,availability down.
Follow all the advice given and add to that some kind of organized cataloging of the tubes you collect,use and don't use. Where they came from,your impressions,how long you ran them for and any tests that were run when you bought them.You do not want to turn around in a few years and have a box of a bunch of tubes and be left wondering what,where and when on them.That will also be helpful in re-selling them and contributing comments to others that will come along and ask the same questions you have asked.
    Keep trolling your local Craigslist for tubes,unless of course,you live near me,and you will be surprised how many tubes show up for next to nothing.You might get lucky and hit a forgotten lode of NOS tubes.

[bside123]

... some kind of organized cataloging of the tubes you collect, use and don't use. Where they came from, your impressions, how long you ran them for and any tests that were run when you bought them. You do not want to turn around in a few years and have a box of a bunch of tubes and be left wondering what, where and when on them. That will also be helpful in re-selling them and contributing comments to others that will come along and ask the same questions you have asked.

Keep records. Great point! I also do this.

[SteveFord]

I ask people whose opinions I trust implicitly - either a fellow tube enthusiast who I know has good ears and a lot of experience, a tube vendor and (if need be) the manufacturer. 
I've yet to be steered wrong and they're all usually in complete agreement.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

As a side note, if you are not used to handling tubes, make sure you use gloves when touching them.  The oil on your skin will decrease tube life just as it would on a halogen light bulb.

Also, tubes need to warm up for about 20 minutes before you obtain optimum sound.

[ZLS]

I've got a neophyte type question that I hope the collecteive experince of this cirlce can help me with.

The question of choice that I’m interested in is the starting point. How do you decide which tubes (brands, model, new v NOS) to start with to test them in your system?

I realize that budget plays apart. But it what about other factors. How do you know where to start and what you are going to expect to hear based on the selection you made. For example, I'll use 6SN7s since they are what I use in my preamp. What makes you choose Sylivania, RCA, GE, Tung Sol, GT, GTA, GTB, WGT, the list goes on?

I’ve read some info on what some of these tubes may “sound” like but I haven’t found much available to help me figure out where to start. Is it all about rolling the dice so to speak and just picking a couple and see/hear what happens?

Thanks in advance for your help.

    I would suggest that perhaps a first move would be to see if any tube dampers would alter what you hear. 
    There is a gentleman on AC who has a company that offers such a product, with a trial period. 
    I have in my own personal experience found that for whatever reason I much prefer the sound with the tube damped. 
    After that, there is no one correct answer, it is all system interdependent.  Each particular brand of tube emphasis a different part of the musical range. 
    Midrange Bloom, High End Extension, Better Bass Control...  There are many reputable dealers, in fact there is a thread here on AC listing them. 
    Call one up, talk to him, explain what sound you are seeking, and give him your budget.  I have always had a good experience, and the descriptions I was given about the sound of the different brands of tubes has always been accurate. 
                                                                                   Good Luck

[Ericus Rex]

You have to jump in, I'm afraid.  Circuit synergy can alter the sound of the tube and of course system synergy comes into play too.  Descriptions of the sound of a tube can be quite off.  Luckily, you can find NOS American 6SN7s for reasonable prices.  See what hifitubes.org (AC's Dr. Cilantro) has in stock, I think he may be clearing out some inventory right now.  Youc an also cruise the flea markets in your area.  I found some used pulls for $2 each that ended up testing better than new!

[iGrant]

I do suggest when going down the tube rolling rabbit hole, that you keep in mind that the designer of the gear will have voiced based on the stock tubes, it is the stock tubes that the reviewers of the gear likely will have received and it like the stock tubes that the designer is listening to after the fact. I suggest that you use the stock as reference point, after good burn ins do some A/B comparisons. It is human nature to think that different is better, especially if you paid for the difference. Pretend the stock tubes are you new purchase to make sure you are heading in the right direction.

I also suggest asking people that own the gear which tube has made on across the board improvement and initially avoid the ones that say for example, sweet top end, not sure where the bass went. These tubes should keep in mind or purchased for system balance tweaks.

Getting another set of stock tubes and send them off to be cryo'd by someone with a rep for tubes (cryoparts on AC comes to mind, not sure if he is still doing it for tubes). This in my experience is like moving up a few notches in cabling. A/B with stock again and decide what should be your reference or they just become your keepers.

Have a tube spice rack, some tubes may be perfect for blues and jazz, others for rock and classical type thing.

After a tube roll, don't forget speaker repositioning, use floor tape to mark your initial speaker position, if say a tube is giving you way more soundstage, a slight toe-in may give you wicked bass.

Hope that helps,
Ian

[Demarche]

Thanks for all the great responses!

I'm really looking forward to doing some experimenting now. I hadn't even thought about tube dampers, but that's another great suggestion. Although I think I'll hold off on the "circuit rolling" for now. I'm afraid I wouldn't know where to start on that