[infiniti driver]

Bob went into serious detail outlining what he feels based on experience is proper amplification of the line of SP tech loudspeakers. I am writing this that will certainly create some controversy concerning Bobs comments and I am IN NO WAY trying to undermine his return policy. In hope of a better understanding of what amplification "in real world circumstances" you can match with the Loudspeakers (the Timepiece 2.0's).... the below text should not be taken lightly.. as I have actually spent a vast amount of time with other amplifiers and the SP Tech timepiece 2.0's (referred to as TP2's in future mentions) and the total interaction observed.

The disclaimer:

Nothing I post here has anything to do with the contract that Bob has established between his customers and his corporation. This is for the sole purpose (soul purpose hehe) of communication that dependant on your room size and listening tastes, you may be very happy going outside the guidelines established by the Owner and designer of the loudspeakers.

Now that this is out of the way, again, I am not here to discredit Bob, on the contrary, if you have gotten this far, be forewarned you should take the time to CAREFULLY read all the words and take them at face value. Nothing here is to contradict anything Bob has stated. These are FACTS based on my observations.


Linear dynamics.

When using these loudspeakers, their is a tendency to turn the power up and see what they will do. This is a given. It is also a music lovers habit. Have you ever been teased with a situation where you are dying to crank the volume but you know you cannot due to either neighbors, the time of day or night or simply the listening environment? I certainly have on many occasions with most loudspeakers I have owned. The ability of a loudspeaker system (and room) to remain neutral during higher volumes is something that is few and far between. Also this is true with lower outputs due to F/M effects. Many sound systems and rooms simply have a listening sweet spot in terms of average dB level. Recordings also have certain sweet spots. One would need to study live music amplified and un-amplified (acoustic) to find a general balance of the volume sweet spot depending on the recording capture and the overall presentation. Example being, just how loud would a solo violin be in your room being played live with full dynamics? Will your room do justice to this powerful instrument? Would you ever have the power and dynamic range to pull off an authentic reproduction of a single solo violin in your room, let alone a full quintet of Bass vio, Cello, Viola, Violin and French horn? Would you want them at the level of the actual instruments in your room?

It would make sense to study your music listening and make a rational decision of what a "natural volume level" would be when listening to a high fidelity system. One could not expect to cram a quintet such as the above instruments and players in a 10' X 12" room with 8' ceiling and expect to achieve any sort of balance these instruments give in the live situation. I have heard the same in a small room and believe me, it ain't pretty. Deafening comes to mind.

Lets imagine what sized room the recording was intended for playback...as it was recorded, not played back. In other words, was this recorded in a large hall, smaller mezzanine or in a small theater? Was the work mastered for 85dB averages, 90dB or 75dB?

How do you know?

Experience teaches us to "know" what level is suitable for any given work that we decide to play back on our systems but we do have the freedom (sans neighbors) to listen at any level we choose.

Now, if you have gotten THIS far, now it is time to make some points.



In a 22 X 18 X 10 room in feet, very few works I have had the pleasure of recording and mastering or purchased EVER requires more than a PEAK output of 150 watts per channel. The exceptions are:

Sustained Organ pedals below 32hZ at REAL levels observed during the recording with an audience present.

Deep Purple "smoke on the water" so loud you cannot yell over it.

Telarc's (c) 1812 overture (80041) during Cannon fire. (I cannot get even the concert bass drum to exceed 20 watts and keep the cannon unclipped with 500 watts/channel)

So, this all said, 99.9% of my entire catalog of hundreds of recordings and thousands of purchased works can be reproduced faithfully, at any desired "realistically sane" volume level with 150 watts per channel in this room.

Loudspeakers with distortion as low as the TP2's "itch" to be "checked out" at the higher power levels.

Remember this fact:

100 watts a channel reproduces close to 110dB of sound pressure average at one meter between the loudspeakers.

200 would be 113dB
400 would be 116dB
800 would be 119dB and 800 average per channel is beyond the thermal limit of most loudspeakers on the market.

Also bear in mind....

Modern recordings of pop music...have little to no dynamic headroom. Average to peak levels are a mere 3 to 6dB. Live acoustic recordings can have as much as a 50dB signal to peak ratio. Music you listen to has a huge bearing on the "proper enjoyable volume setting" for proper music reproduction.

I know it is a mild thrill to have a set of Klipschorns (c) running 200 watts per channel in an average room. Peaks of 120 dB and all. Ask yourself, short of live cannon fire, 32 to 64 foot pipes of the bourdon of the pipe organ and early 70's concert levels...do you REALLY listen THAT LOUD THAT MUCH OF THE TIME?

My last 200 hours of working with and listening to the SP TP2's have been on a solid state 150 watt/channel amplifier with calibrated metering attached to the output for reference. These meters being peak hold, peak and VU weighted selectable has shown me that at no time have I ever exceeded 70 watts per channel (peak) and I never had any problem with not having "enough volume" or "enough dynamic range".

Bob can keep the 300watt (at or about) minimum for 2 way shipping and this is his decision. What I am saying here is this, how do you listen? How many would disqualify themselves of a seriously fantastic loudspeaker system simply because of a specification?

I have had awesome experiences using these speakers with 150 watts per channel. No longer do I worry if the amplifier will be driven into histeresis due to the fact, I simply do not want to play the music that loud. I can feel the bass in my chest just fine with 150 watts/ch.

My bet is this.

If you listen to music as the music is intended to be played, at levels that are natural, breathtaking and full, I see no reservations on using this loudspeaker with 100 per channel. Their is a remedy for those who really want to experience 125dB with the SP tech 2.0's.

5 pairs stacked on their sides each with 300 watts per channel will reach into the low 20hZ range and be as much output as you would ever need and all but the largest of rooms.  This is the system I hope to see Bob display one day in the future at one of the high fidelity reproduction equipment shows.

Edited for mistake in my math for the dB levels

[JLM]

Thanks I.D. for saying with many words, what I couldn't say in a few (on another thread here).

The difference between 100 wpc and 300 wpc is 4 dB.  Room size can make that much difference.  Amp design can also make that much difference.

Listening 2 meters away cost 3 dB from the rating, but having two speakers balances that out.  Typical room reflections would also help 2 - 4 dB.

So to achieve realistic 105 dB symphonic concert peaks you need 20 dB of gain for the Timpieces minus 2 - 4 dB for room gain (net 16 - 18 dBW).  That works out to be 40 - 65 wpc, but I'll not quibble over 2 - 4 dBW (your 100 wpc example).  That said, I'm a fan of oversized amps on principle.  The issue is one of tradeoff, quality versus watts (and the almighty pocketbook).

105 dB peaks also always for 25 dB peaks from a constant listening level of 80 dB (where many listen).  This is reasonable performance.

Remember that extended exposure to 85 dB will result in permanent hearing loss.

Therefore I too don't quite understand why Bob is drawing a wpc "line in the sand" and why at 300 wpc.  I agree, it would seem to discourage sales to otherwise satisfied customers.

[infiniti driver]

These loudspeakers are so LOW in distortion that one would (as a new owner) be inticed to "turn it way up". In my review, I stated..."these loudspeakers LIKE 500 watts per channel"  Mojo happens at all levels..even whisper soft and I feel that this low distortion that is displayed makes folks "want" to turn it up to some form of distortion, imaginary or whatever, to get something close to what they enjoyed with higher distortion loudspeakers.

I remember when I actually owned a clone of the mighty Klipschorns. I used them on a Sansui 30 w/channel receiver that I bought new about that time (model was the 5050) and was very satisfyed with the sound quality and dynamics once I weeded out the bugs in the speakers such as the many peaks and dips. In this research, I sacrificed some sensitivity for accuracy. They were plus or minus 6dB devices from 35 to 15K and it simply was intolerable to my ears having things "stick out" or "suck out" and clarity issues being masked by other frequencies. Once I finished the modifications (listed within this forum) I had a set of loudspeakers that were listenable but I wanted more force than the 30/per could muster. I then opted for a superior unit at 220/channel.

The first thing I noticed was a darker background and more of a separate entity between instruments. At that time I figured I could break the walls with that much power but to my display, it really did not go "that much louder" , the sound simply "hit harder" had more breathing room and was more enjoyable with dynamics galore.


What was different....was, I was enjoying less dynamic compression and lower distortion. Asking the 30 watt/channel unit for 50 gave it a "unique sound" that was not utter "clippage" but bandwidth distortion at the onset of clipping. This receiver has the ability to peak around 50..but not more than that. Many loudspeakers typically have "products" which when pushed, make unique noises that some folks simply are used to. The SP's can make "unique noises" when a 50 watt amp is overdriven by  attempting more than limit...which is not music and actually the cones move "a mile" when underpowered.

Because the SP techs are so low in distortion, I firmly feel to get the most out of them, it would be nice to have 500 a channel on tap...but it certainly is NOT needed to enjoy the loudspeakers under music enjoyment circumstances.

Absolutly for testing the limits, yes, Bob is right.

I just do not want to see the foolishness of someone thinking that because they don't have the watts, the loudspeakers "can't do it". One thing is for certain, if your amp is running out of steam, it will show up in the loudspeakers. It is not the loudspeakers fault..it is the nature of the design. If you want UNCANNY accuracy (it is +/- 1dB typically) you will need to sacrifice SOMETHING. I was floored running the McIntosh MC2500 on some very high level drum kit recordings and seeing the meters in the 2000 watt/channel range.

I have also read that even a moderately sensitive loudspeaker (mid 90's) TRYING to reproduce the simple sound of a pair of sissors cutting some stationary in full dynamics as the real event, may require up to 400 watts per channel.

[Aether Audio]

Everybody,

Infinity driver and JLM have both made very valid points and I agree with them.  The issue of the Timepieces NEEDING 300 watts/ch. is not an issue - they DO NOT!  That is, if your intention is to enjoy your music at normal listening level (80-85 dB) in an average size listening room, then about 100 watts or a little more should be sufficient.  Our 300 watt requirement is based totally on other issues.

The fact is, of all the customers that I have knowledge of concerning the size of their amplifiers, only ONE has had the 300 watts we require for the deal.  All others have had less than this.  One even drove them with a Rotel integrated amp of 150 watts per channel.  No one has ever commented, let alone complained that they didn't have enough power.  So... the free shipping deal change was not based on the idea that you need that much power.

The reason, which I will repeat and attempt to clarify again, is for the following:
Most of you would all agree that the majority of audiophiles have less than  300 watts/ch. Right?  Of all these potential customers, how many do you suppose would want tto have a free pair of speakers for a month just to play with - never intending to keep them?  We all live in the real world.  I hate to be a cynic but we all know that there are probably quite a few.  

I have read a number of various threads here and elsewhere.  There are a number of you that make it a hobby to audition equipment and then write up your own little personal review - and that's fine.  I'm sure that has helped many smaller companies along the way.  But I've also seen many instances where some folks home is like a revolving door hotel for equipment - much of which they never keep.  Then on top of that, the manufacturer gets a bad review from such a person.

That is how the cookie crumbles I suppose.  And I don't see anything really wrong with any of it.  But in most of these cases, the "would be" reviewer had to dish out a little of his own money in the process.  That, I would think, would make anyone a little hesitant to just keep buying gear and then send it back.  When it's your own money, you tend to be a little more discrete.

I may have been a little naive at first, but I'm no fool.  After Jerry sent his pair back I had an "accountability" discussion with my partner and he drew my attention to the above stated facts.  We didn't change the deal because of any issue with Jerry.  I never doubted his sincerety about his intent to keep the speakers, either before or after he sent them back.  It was just a "wake up call" to the fact that others may not be as forthright as he was.

You may say, "Well, what's to keep someone with 300 watts from doing the same thing."  NOTHING!  There are no guarantees in business.  But - in the circumstance that an individual does lean in the direction of being a little "loose" in his or her initial intentions of making a permanent purchase, if they do have the 300 watts, they're going to get the full impact of what the Timepieces can do.  That just might make them rethink their original intention of returning the speakers.  And how much the more so for someone that was a bit more serious in the first place?

It seems people are more than willing to spend someone elses money OR tell them how they should spend it.  We have had plenty of "advice" about our decision to change the original deal on this forum.  I wonder how many of those same people would be forthcoming with their money to help SP Technology Loudspeakers out of a financial "hole" that we managed to get ourselves in, having followed their advice.???

Enough sour grapes.  We are moving forward and our orders continue to increase.  I can say that they haven't come from this thread though.  Maybe that's my fault. Oh well, some days you get the bear, on others, the bear gets you.  To the best of my ability, I will continue to support this circle as long as there is interest.  But my time is getting shorter.  

For those that haven't completely turned their backs, there may be a new offer in the future on the Continuum A.D.'s  Since they're 3 dB more efficient AND 3 dB more voltage sensitive than the Timepieces,  they are probably a better fit for most of you with less than the 300 watts required for the Timepiece.  The spec will probably be on the order of 150 watts into 4-ohms.  A good (can drive 4-ohms) 75 watt/ch into 8-ohms amp would probably suffice.  It will be TUBE friendly as well.  Yes... tube lovers that meet the power requirement will get the deal also.  The time frame for this will depend on how quickly we can catch up on our orders and the response I get from this posting.

Take care all
 -Bob

[infiniti driver]

I want to clarify something just for the record. I am not trying to twist Bobs arm in any way to relax any policies he has established as a healthy working model for his company. I am really hoping that when folks post something in these pages, they mean what they say. The reasoning behind my original post was not directed to any certain indivigual but spoken, because it simply occured to me...I wonder just how many people are dubious about these loudspeakers solely because of the 300W policy for the double ship gurantee. I really cannot name any company that would stick their neck out like this and offer ANY return shipping on any product under any period of time after the sale. If those companies do exsist, they are probably multi-million dollar entities with very high profit margins! Notice the word "probably" here.  It occured to me to post this when I started actually watching those big blue meters and saying...this is damn powerful...with them hovering around 30 watts. Then I said to myself...yep...10 more dB in this room and I will really be pumping some serious iron. So...in retrospect, I wanted to make it clear that those who really want to own a very fine loudspeaker system but are reluctant to go for it on consideration that their 100 to 200 watt/channel amp would be "grossly underpowering the speakers" to be in check of the fact...of how you REALLY listen to music in your home.

My sincere apologies if this was out of line in any way. Communication is the key. It is also great to know where the "redline" is on the tachometer. I am an avid fan of "save thy ears" and if folks are really listening at rock crushing levels for extended periods of time...do yourself a huge favor that will last a lifetime: Notice your listening habits and protect your hearing. Your ears simply don't rebuild themselves!


PS:

This loudspeakers has all the speed of the Quad ESL989 with another 10dB of headroom and is as accurate and has more impact, but leaves the detail intact. Yepper, they are that nice. I eventually would love to have 3 pairs. Matter of time and finances.

[JLM]

Bob and I.D., thanks for all the efforts you've put into communicating your principles and intents to the rest of us.  You've certainly gone more than the extra mile to clarify your positions.

It's sad to see that the generous 50% down, shipping paid offer has actually caused grief.  

I raised the wattage issue for the very reason you mentioned Bob, to keep the door open for tube amp owners.

Hopefully by saying that your busy Bob, it means that business is good.

BTW 8th nerve has a ZR1600 digital amp available for $800 ($1,100 modded) and two modded ZR1000 amps for $1,000 (or a pair ready for 800+ wpc monoblocked for $1,700).