[stump4545]

does a computer sending lossless music to a outboard dac sacrifice any sound quality whatsoever?

i know its not supposed to, but is there any validity to suggest playing digital music the "old fashion" way through $5K cd players somehow extracts more sound quality.

is there any thing what so ever lost by playing music through a computer or is there any valid arguments that people make to suggest that using a computer with lossless files somehow misses something.

to me, using a computer this way is just really convenient.  thanks.

[srb]

I think that a CD player has an inherent advantage due to the direct internal connection to it's internal DAC, so that no jitter is introduced.
 
That being said, if you can output your computer to an external DAC with a method that limits jitter to an ultra low threshold, I would say you would be on a level playing field.
 
This would include devices like (but not exclusively limited to) the Asynchronous USB DACs from Wavelength and Ayre, the FireWire DACs from Metric Halo and Weiss with their extensive proprietary jitter reduction and the USB Pace Car Reclocker and Overdrive DAC from Empirical Audio.
 
If you are using a coaxial or optical S/PDIF output from the computer, jitter is a concern, but there are a number of new interfaces and DAC chips on the market that are said to reduce jitter to a very low amount.
 
The Sabre DAC chips from ESS Technology have a "Patented Time Domain Jitter Eliminator" which will need to be proven in the field.
 
Current ESS Sabre DACs include the DIY Twisted Pear Buffalo and the Peachtree Audio Nova Integrated Amplifier.  There are several new DACs in development which are expected to be released in the coming months from Eastern Electric, NuForce and Wyred4Sound that will have one of the ESS Sabre32 DAC chips.
 
As with any DAC, the implementation and the analog output stage is very important, and just because a device contains these chips, does not necessarily guarantee superior sound quality.
 
Steve
 
 

[Big Red Machine]

Does having a Squeezebox in the chain between computer and DAC reduce jitter?  As this is pretty typical for SB users, I was wondering if there was anything inherent in the SB that eliminates noise if running en ethernet cable.

I never use a CDP anymore.  I have one on the rack unplugged.  What a pain and it doesn't sound the same even using the same DAC, to me.

[lcrim]

The SB running hardwired (w/o the wireless card turned on) does improve sound quality IMO.
There was a thread on this topic http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=66894.msg685390#msg685390
Big Red Machine, you took part in that thread.
Turning off the wireless card is probably the explanation for this improvement.

Reading the data from a magnetic hard drive instead of a laser reading the pits and lands off a CD by the optical reader in a CDP is significantly more accurate.  Whether the additional problems of getting that data to a DAC cause other inaccuracies is the central question in this debate.

[stump4545]

it seems that a cpu with lossless files is o so convenient to play music (aka itunes) etc especially since a cpu and a quality dac is so inexpensive compared to some primo $$$ cd players. 

what is the central reason more audiophiles do not use a cpu in their system besides ones that already have their rig setup?

is the added jitter from the cpu to dac the reason and if so can't the same by said to those that use a cd transport to a outboard dac?

[srb]

it seems that a cpu with lossless files is o so convenient to play music (aka itunes) etc especially since a cpu and a quality dac is so inexpensive compared to some primo $$$ cd players.

Yes it is, and those that have experienced it refuse to go back to spinning discs for general playback.  However, high quality DACs are not inexpensive.  Some of the ones I mentioned earlier sell for $2500 to $5000.

what is the central reason more audiophiles do not use a cpu in their system besides ones that already have their rig setup?

I think first you have to somewhat enjoy computers and setting things up.  It takes time to rip a library of CDs, and if you are using say Slimserver or Foobar as your player, you will also invest some time on initial configuration and setup beyond what you might do for iTunes.  Some people just don't want to mess with it.

is the added jitter from the cpu to dac the reason and if so can't the same by said to those that use a cd transport to a outboard dac?

Yes, the same can be said about CD transport and an outboard DAC.  In the Bryston forum, many users who have both the BCD-1 CD player and the BDA-1 DAC, slightly preferred the sound from the analog outputs of the CD player, even though the BDA-1 DAC has separate DACs for each channel versus the BCD-1's single DAC.  I have to think the slight difference in this case was less jitter, as the DAC circuitry in each is identical, and the nod should have gone to the external BCD-1 with it's dual DACs.
 
If you are so inclined, I urge you to implement a computer music server.  Some of those wonderful DACs that the computer people are using like the Ayre, Wavelength, Metric Halo and Weiss are out of my price range.  I am currently using the DAC in my modest Rotel receiver, as I felt that the subtle improvement I got with a few run of the mill DACs I previously had (MHDT Paradisea and Stello DA-100 Signature) did not seem to justify their cost.
 
I will be looking at one of the new ESS Sabre32 DACs.  There are a few users on this forum who are using the DIY Twisted Pear Buffalo DAC with excellent results and they feel that the jitter is greatly reduced using it with some sources known to have high jitter.
 
Steve

[zybar]

Here is an interesting article that shows how Linn is no longer going to produce CD players:

http://www.avguide.com/blog/linn-products-announce-the-death-cd

Guess they (and their customers) feel computer based audio is the way to go.

George

[Larkston Zinaspic]

The Metric Halo unit I own has reinvigorated my interest in computer audio, if anything, and it is some of the best sound I've heard in my system thus far. Playing back Flac files in sbooth's Play won't have me spinning discs again anytime soon.

Perhaps the only concern I have, in terms of compromising sound quality, would be in finding the most 'accurate' way of playing back files ripped from older 'pre-emphasized' discs. Sox and WaveEmph are often recommended for this purpose, but I wonder if processing the files in this way is really a reliable method or just detracts from the fidelity of the original transfer.

[firedog]

Ripping CDs with a "bit perfect" method (EAC, dbpoweramp) to a hard drive and playback from a HD is a superior method to spinning a CD (less jitter).

The question then is: how to get that info to your audio system without compromising the sound?

Wireless is bit perfect, but the transfer to audio once the wireless is received, may not be.

There are some good (somewhat pricey) solutions from Empirical Audio, Benchmark, Linn, and others. Some of these are USB and can work well if properly implemented, and some of them are better sounding, IMHO, than just about any CD player.

There are very high level soundcards from Lynx, which are also well regarded (not cheap).

Logitech Duet is a good system, on its own it's what I would call mid-fi, with a good DAC it becomes audiophile quality. Logitech Transporter is also what I'd call audiophile, but a very good transport/DAC or CD player (several $K) is probably better.

Most of us who have gone over to a good PC/server based system won't go back - the sound is at least as good as CD, and with the convenience and easy access to your entire music collection your enjoyment of your music goes up.  A lot of it depends on what you have now and what you are willing to spend.

[RooX]

I was usuing a $5k cd player when i got my first squeezebox2.  They co-existed, the squeezebox was for general listening while doing things in the house, the cd player was for real audio time.  Next came a squeezebox3 and an inexpensive dac.  "Hey thats pretty good".  I would say useage went about 50/50 at that point.  Upgraded the cd player about the same time. 

Then the duet came out.  I got full digital mods by boulder to it, I bought a new power supply for it.  I upgraded my dac to a trivista 21.  I fiddled with the server side settings.  I tested cat5e vs wireless (i like wireless more!)  and guess what, the cd player went up for sale.  It was outperformed and WAY less convienient for less than 1/3 the price.