Where do I go from here?

Kinger · « **on:** 2 Feb 2010, 01:49 am »

Hi all,

Just recently jumped into the world of higher end (for me anyway) audio with purchase of a pair of Salk SongTower's with ribbon tweeters. Now I'm wondering what component might be the next best item to upgrade in my system to improve the 2 channel audio experience. Currently, I've got a run of the mill Sony DVD player (non bluray) feeding signals to a Denon 1800 AVR which then feeds the signals to the Salks. The current sound is an AMAZING improvement over my previous NHT Super One/Sunfire Sub Jr. combo, but I'm now intrigued as to just how much better it could get over time

The problem is, I don't have a ton of disposable income that I can just throw at the hobby any time I want. (Darn kids and trying to be a responsible dad and all.......)

If you had rougly $1,200 to spend this year on improving the system and could only spend it on ONE item, what would that be given my current system above and why would you make that choice? Couple of ideas have crossed my mind and I've been discussing them with a few audio friends of mine......

1.) Upgrade the source to something like an Oppo BP83SE. This would give me bluray capability to view on my 52" Samsung LCD while also providing me what I assume would be a better audio experience based on the internal DAC being better than my run of the mill Sony DVD player.

2.) Purchase a stand alone external DAC. Logic here would be to improve the sound from my current DVD player.

3.) Purchase a decent power amplifier (Probably SS as wouldn't want the kiddies to burn their fingers on tubes) where the Denon could be used as a pre.

I've read many comments on the circle that a good pre-amp can make a tremendous improvement in sound. However, given the fact that I'd also need to combine that pre with an amp I'm not sure a purchase like this will really be possible in this year. Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.

evan1 · « **Reply #1 on:** 2 Feb 2010, 08:57 am »

An amp would make a huge impact on the sound . You will get much more dynsmics. You csn upgrade next year and get a tube pre that doesn't have exposed tubes so yo won't have to worry about the kids. It took me 2 years from when I got my ST's to get to where I am with my system. 1 piece at a time

satfrat · « **Reply #2 on:** 2 Feb 2010, 09:19 am »

I like your #1 choice myself. Your music will always be as good as it's source will allow it to be plus like you said it'll open the door to BluRay entertainment for your LCD (which will surely appreciate it). If you had a dedicated stereo system, then an upgrade to a better amp/preamp/dac is surely a route to explore but as you want a double duty system, I'd upgrade the source route 1st. Also buy used if possible. $850 BP83SE on A'gon (new in box) as an example but sales pending on this deal. Always try and find a deal on little used audio gear when possible. The kids will thank you for having the scratch to buy the $200 Nikes.

Cheers,
Robin

Rocket · « **Reply #3 on:** 2 Feb 2010, 11:02 am »

Hi,

Why not have a look at virtue audio. They will be shipping the sensation shortly which is very well priced and is an integrated tripath digital amplifier. They also sell a cdp.

Something to consider.

Regards

Rod

Kinger · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Feb 2010, 11:04 am »

Thanks for the comments guys. Please keep the posts coming! I'm sure many of you have been in this situation before and if you had to do it again, would you have made the same decisions as to what you upgraded first or looking back would you have changed up the order of your purchases?

Also, as a side note, this system will be used for 95% music with maybe 5% HT with just two speakers. (Hardly a HT I realize.) There are no plans at this time to add more speakers into the mix or to purchase amplification for more than two channels. The Oppo SE potential purchase was mainly to improve the sound quality of my redbook CD's through the internal DAC as well as give me the capability to allow the family to watch blurays.

EthanH · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Feb 2010, 02:17 pm »

I've never heard the songtowers so my advice may not be that great; I did hear the HT2-TL, however, and thought it was an excellent, neutral speaker that sounds fantastic with tubes.

If I were you I'd be wary of using a ten year old base-model receiver as a pre, and would probably just buy a well regarded integrated amplifier. If tubes are really out of the question due to safety concerns you could check out a nice hybrid integrated like the Unison Unico. A hybrid basically combines a solid-state amp with a tube pre, so the component's operating temperature would probably be comparable to your current receiver. If you get a good deal on a used integrated you might still have enough left over for a decent budget DAC.

With that said, however, if you can put the amp in a safe place something like a Rogue Cronus would probably sound pretty awesome. Your concerns are definitely credited though; I feel very lucky that my son has been around tubes since he was a baby and knows not to touch them, just like an oven or knife or what have you.

Happy hunting.

keenween · « **Reply #6 on:** 2 Feb 2010, 02:54 pm »

I would recommend upgrading to an Oppo BDP-83 and maybe not the 83SE. I have an 83 and its a pretty good source. The 83SE might be better, but I think there is a law of diminishing returns when you get into hifi and are on a budget. A better source and or dac helps across the board, but it gets to a point where the recorded material is just as important...what I am saying is my experience has been upgrading has made everything sound better, but it really shines on well recorded material. As a 30yo guy whose music collection doesn't have the most refined of recordings, I find only 10 maybe 15 percent of my library makes me think I've reached audio nirvana. The BDP-83 is a good source and would allow bluray capability, plus still give you budget for another upgrade.

I think a good SS amp is a worthy buy as well, as it may last a long time. I love my Odyssey, and they are very affordable on the used market. (I don't have Songtowers but GR-Research N3s, another transmission line design.) Lots of choices out there.

Also, my system is for both music and movies. I have had a stereo preamp and a receiver once upon a time, but I think I am going to build my own preamp with an extra channel for the lfe track. I've experimented with movies in my system with subwoofers running 2.0 vs 2.1, and 2.1 was the far better choice for bass playback (with the BDP83). So if you have or want a subwoofer for movie playback, a stereo preamp wouldn't be my first choice.

Good luck!

drphoto · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Feb 2010, 03:53 pm »

Don't forget about room treatment. It may be your biggest bang for the buck in sound, depending on what your room is like now.

I thought my system had a bit of upper midrange glare. I was hellbent to get a tube pre, but a few hundred dollars worth of GIK panels solved the problem. I know panels don't seem like as much fun as a shiny new amp, but the room is part of the system.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Feb 2010, 04:06 pm »

Speaker placement, room treatments, and power conditioning...imho....

Kinger · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Feb 2010, 04:18 pm »

Thanks for the continued comments guys.

Room treatments is probably gonna be a tough sell to the wife as my gear is actually in our family room and not a dedicated listening room. (Really need to get cracking on finishing my basement.....) Some have mentioned GIK panels that have artistic designs and this MIGHT go somewhere with the wife, but I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch so to speak.

drphoto · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Feb 2010, 07:04 pm »

I think a few brightly colored rectangles in the room looks cool. Rather than getting them in white, and trying to 'hide' them I went w/ a strong color and let them function as art in a sense. But then again, I'm a photographer and we're supposed to have eclectic taste! You can always put panels on stands and hide them when not listening, but I found the treatment of the ceiling (which doesn't give you that option) yielded the most improvement.

When I get my proper OB sub cabinets finished, I'll take a pic of my room and post it.

As far as amps. I'm a very happy Odyssey owner. They are a bargain new, and a steal used. Fellow AC'er "Marbles" has Salk HT3's powered by Symphonic Line, the German version of Odyssey and his system is incredibly good, among the best I've heard.

JLM · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Feb 2010, 06:58 pm »

You've started at the right place (speakers make the biggest difference). And the Salks are quite good.

Your original idea of the Oppo BP83SE would be an excellent 2nd step. Within the stated budget I could suggest no better.

The the left over budget, I'd suggest getting some good signal cables. Scott Endler builds high quality custom signal cabling at rock bottom prices.

When you're ready to look at amps, check out the Salk circle below for opinions.

Kinger · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Feb 2010, 08:54 pm »

Why is it that I keep thinking that a dedicated amp like an AVA Insight 240 is gonna make such a HUGE improvement to my overall sound even when paired with the Denon as a pre? Probably a audiophile newb mistake..........

Rocket · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Feb 2010, 06:06 am »

Hi,

It really depends on how many products you intend to upgrade in your system. You probably need to ask yourself whether you want to invest money in a good quality preamplifier as well.

The denon avr will certainly limit the potential of the van alstine amplifier. I think that they have an integrated amplifier that you may wish to investigate?

Best of luck.

Regards

Rod

JLM · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Feb 2010, 11:40 am »

Unless you find someone that knows your Denon, it's a crap shoot guessing what "attributes" the pre or power sections each "contribute". If you have a bricks and mortar store around they should allow you to take a piece or two home (probably with credit card deposit) and play around. Keep in mind that Frank VanAlstine is one of those crotchity old farts that pulls no punches, really knows his stuff, and builds all around good stuff. He picked Salks as his reference speakers. You can see his circle below.

Amps can make a bigger difference than I would have imagined before hearing a stupid/extreme example where someone paired a $3,000 amp with $2 car speakers slapped into tiny sealed boxes and it produced "amazingly decent" sound. But as I said above, speakers (as the only transducers in your system) will make the biggest difference and source is 2nd (crap in, crap out). Jim Salk and his customers would know best as there is synergy between speakers and amps.

I still like the idea of the Oppo BP83SE. You could shop for custom modded versions, but this unit should be a solid performer with the factory warrantee. And you'd not be investing too much in the fast moving digital source environment we're in. This piece is well recognized (good for resale value and is currently on the cutting edge with the Sabre technology).

Rocket · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Feb 2010, 01:38 pm »

Hi Kinger,

Why not have a look at the Van Alstine website and check out the secondhand equipment that he is selling.

Salk Sound speakers are very good quality and you really did make a very good decision to purchase them. I've been in this hobby since 1985 and I've spent a ton of money on equipment. I imported a pair of ht2's to Australia and they are a great sounding speaker and from what I've heard the songtower rt's are comparable in quality.

With Jim's speakers 'crap in crap out' is a fair comment. If you don't want to look at secondhand gear have a look at the 'sensation' integrated amps from virtue audio. They are tripath digital amplifiers and will sound very good as well. Buy a cheap dac and you will be pretty close to your $1200US budget. You could also look at audiogon for secondhand gear.

Btw my previous speaker were nuforce s9's and the ht2's were almost $2KUS less and sound at least a level better.

Good luck.

Regards

Rod

mcgsxr · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Feb 2010, 01:58 pm »

Everyone has different priorities, and all have offered good advice so far.

If it were me, and I had a pair of those speakers, and a 95% music focus, I would take that $1200 and buy a DAC and an integrated amplifier, and use the Sony as the transport.

For an integrated, I would look for something with some drive (50-100w I assume would do the trick).

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1269368494&/Primare-301 this looks tasty for $800 as an example.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1268513404&/Atoll-IN-80-(silver) and this one looks good too for just under $800.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1268236947&/Audio-Gd-FBI-500 there are some guys here in love with these units too.

For a DAC to liven up the Sony:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlconv&1270582013&/Nixon-Tube-DAC+ would do nicely, and add tubes to the mix - could be placed out of reach of the kids?

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlconv&1270495956&/Art-DI/O I used one of these for years, and it was really good.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlconv&1270175784&/Monarchy-Audio-22A-Dual-20bit these are well reviewed too.

Lots of ways to skin the audio cat. If I had a great set of speakers, I would spread the budget around to lightly improve both the source, and the amp.

Kinger · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Feb 2010, 12:44 pm »

Thanks for the continuing suggestions guys. One thing I started to wonder about last night is whether I'd be better off going with an Oppo SE or something like a Logitech Squeezebox and a big external HD for my PC. I realize the Squeezebox would need a good external DAC, but really the prices between the Oppo SE and the Squeezebox and DAC could be pretty close especially if I could find a good used DAC. Granted, I'd still need a blu ray player for those times I wanted to watch a blu ray film, but again I could probably get away with buying one on the cheap considering I'm not a videophile.

konut · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Feb 2010, 01:17 pm »

Finish the basement, save up, go crazy.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Feb 2010, 04:09 pm »

Quote from: Kinger on 7 Feb 2010, 12:44 pm

Thanks for the continuing suggestions guys. One thing I started to wonder about last night is whether I'd be better off going with an Oppo SE or something like a Logitech Squeezebox and a big external HD for my PC. I realize the Squeezebox would need a good external DAC, but really the prices between the Oppo SE and the Squeezebox and DAC could be pretty close especially if I could find a good used DAC. Granted, I'd still need a blu ray player for those times I wanted to watch a blu ray film, but again I could probably get away with buying one on the cheap considering I'm not a videophile.

Things are moving in that direction (computer audio)....so yes, consider your post.