[Nick77]

Hi since this is the closest thing to a diy forum and i know some great woodworkers hang out here, i need a little help. We have approx 9-11k custom cabinet project coming up, so i decided to give diy a try. I went to the local hardwood store and picked up the knotty alder wood. 3 1/2" stiles and cut the rails to 3" and then used 1/4 plywood, we love the shaker style and of course its the eaisest door to build. Picked up a kreg jig for assembley.

I am pleased with the potential i see after dry fitting one door for a sample. We are looking for a honey maple color. The problem is after i applied a minwax wood finish oil stain it now looks like it has dutch elm disease

I can clearly see even if you can build them if you cant finish them to your likeing then all the effort will be futile. One company has the cabinets at 9k and the finish is 5k.

I got a little overzelious and applied the stain without any finish sanding although the product is quite smooth. Can you experts tell what to do to get a uniform stain. I now see that Minwax reccomends minwax conditioner before staining a pourous wood like alder.

Any help and advise would be greatly appriciated.

[tgp06]

Conditioner, sometimes called "pre-stain", or a sealer is absolutely essential on softer woods to avoid the blotchy look. Sand smooth first, apply the conditioner and if the grain raises too much, lightly sand again and apply a second coat of conditioner before stain and topcoat.

[tgp06]

Another quicky- try the conditioning and stain on some scrap pieces. At times you can't achieve as dark a finish as desirable with regular wipe on/wipe off stains, particularly after pre-conditioning. A cover stain will achieve a darker finish but is a royal pain to use and can hide the grain somewhat. Also see if you can get a response from someone familiar with using analine dye to reach the color desired.

[mpauly]

Ditto. 

Try sanding to 220 grit and then apply a sanding sealer (which is really just a 1-2 lb cut of shellac).  Be sure to use a dewaxed shellac as any shellac with a wax in it will prevent the topcoat from adhering.  You can then try applying any number of coloring methods (oil based stain, gel stain, tinted top coat, etc).

Be sure to test on a sample board first. 

If you're looking for some good woodworking and finishing info, try woodnet and saw mill creek

http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/

Michael

[Nick77]

Thanks for the tips guys. I will pick up the pre-stain and try some samples. The samples i did first didnt exhibit any blotching so i moved ahead 

I have a little darker stain to try out if the first stain comes out to light with pre-stain applied.

Thanks again for advise and links

[Voncarlos]

Conditioner, sometimes called "pre-stain", or a sealer is absolutely essential on softer woods to avoid the blotchy look. Sand smooth first, apply the conditioner and if the grain raises too much, lightly sand again and apply a second coat of conditioner before stain and topcoat.

+1,
Some good advice here. The woodworking forums are your best bet for endless advice on finishing.
Finishing, more often than not, can be tricky, there are so many variables that can effect the outcome.

[Bill Baker]

I woould recommend any experimenting on larger pieces. I realize wood is not free but with such a big prpoject, it sounds like it would save you a bunch in the end.

 Using smaller samples would not give yo a good indication as you may have selected a small piece that does not have any of the bloching effect. A larger surface will give you a better idea of what the final outcome will be.

Same holds true for any soft woods.

[WGH]

The pre-stain will help somewhat, if the color is too light then you can re-stain with the same color. A darker stain will make the blotches show up more. Staining will accent, not hide any mill marks so if you want a professional looking finish you will have to sand, probably up to 320 grit if you do not want to see any swirl marks from an orbital sander.

The big boys will completely seal the wood and let it dry then spray light color coats without wiping until they get the color they need, yes the grain is obscured but they get an even color without blotches. You can do the same by brushing on the stain and not wiping it off, I have seen alder doors finished on site this way and they looked great. Minwax is not my favorite stain, I prefer Sherwood stains, they have more pigment and a faster evaporating solvent.

Water based stains do not get as blotchy as oil based stains but you have to be quick and still use a compatible stain controller too.

And the doors you already stained - you might have to sand them back down to bare wood and re-stain the same as as the rest of the doors or they will never match.

Wayne

[dvenardos]

Nick,
  I want to make some doors also. Would you mind posting some pictures of the unassembled doors? Is the main panel of the door what you used the plywood for?

Thanks,
Don

[Nick77]

Yes the main center panel is plywood and the stiles and rails will be joined with a kregs jig. I made the slots in the rails off center to get a bolder shaker look from the front.

I restained a couple of stiles with pre-stain first and while they are better WGH is right, it only seems to help somewhat.

im starting to think about tung oil or something??

[dvenardos]

I see, thanks.
Won't you have to create the pocket holes on the outside of the frame and then have to fill?

I didn't pretreat my baltic birch speakers and got an after the fact recommendation for shellac thinned with mineral spirits as a much better conditioner that the premixed options.

[smbrown]

I'm sure you've opened the door (no pun intended) for LOADS of different ideas here. Personally, to get a really natural looking honey color on Alder I would try regular old Orange Shellac. I don't think any pre-treatment would be needed in that case, but test it first. Shellac dries really fast, so I'd thin it a bit and do a couple coats. Get your shellac at a regular woodworking store, not a Lowes or something like that. They're generally very helpful with advice as well.

[Nick77]

I see, thanks.
Won't you have to create the pocket holes on the outside of the frame and then have to fill?

I didn't pretreat my baltic birch speakers and got an after the fact recommendation for shellac thinned with mineral spirits as a much better conditioner that the premixed options.

Well as a matter of fact smarty pants i do have those holes on top of the outside frame.  (Slight oversight)   From now on i can a least stop short and keep it to one end only and thus keeping it out of sight. hehe

[srb]

Nick,
 
I don't see any kind of joinery method between the stiles and rails.  Are they simply edge glued?
 
Steve

[Nick77]

Nick,
 
I don't see any kind of joinery method between the stiles and rails.  Are they simply edge glued?
 
Steve

Steve i havent drilled the holes yet with the kreg jig. It will be screwed together with the special kreg screws. I might use some glue along with screws though.

[srb]

Steve i havent drilled the holes yet with the kreg jig. It will be screwed together with the special kreg screws. I might use some glue along with screws though.

Sorry, I just looked up Kreg Joint / Kreg Jig, I wasn't familiar with the term!
 
I would use glue with them.  Even if you screw them tight, slight expansion and contraction will give a very slight raised joint that you can feel and glue will help with that.  And because of expansion and contraction, the panels are usually left floating.
 
I assume you are building a kitchen?  Very ambitious, indeed.  Are you building the cabinets as well?  I have thought about it, but boy, that's a lot of cabinets!  If so, are they plywood or some kind of fibre board?  Frame or frameless?  Inquiring minds want to know.
 
Thanks,
 
Steve

[Christof]

1. Register at Homestead Finishing Products forum for advice
2. Buy a Festool Domino to assemble cabinets...after you finish put it on craigslist for 80% of what you paid...gone in a day. Forget about the Kreg Jig.