V-1's go under the knife

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Danny Richie

V-1's go under the knife
« on: 20 Jul 2009, 01:25 am »
Yeah, I know, I just can't leave well enough alone.

So I tried something new on the V-1 prototypes. I removed the rear firing ambient tweeter. Then I cut the back out of the compression driver. So I guess that it really isn't a compression driver any more. Now it is open backed as well.





Then I had to design a new crossover for it. The response of the tweeter didn't change a lot, but with the other tweeter gone I had to readjust everything to balance the impedances back out again. The cap value on the tweeter had to go up slightly to keep the same curve but with more power shunt back to ground on the L-pad.

I needed to drop a little of the woofers upper range down a little to so added an RC trap at the end of its circuit (zobel/impedance equalization).

The frequency response is only slightly smoother but the sound is considerably different. The spectral decay is cleaner too.

The rear tweeter was only adding a little top end air and not playing all the way down to the woofer. Now the main tweeter does play down to the woofer so the rear output is more full range. The phase relationship of the rear output is slightly off from that of the front, but no big dips in the output. It gives a slight but wide band dipped output from about 900Hz to 5kHz. This may actually help the in room response a little for most rooms. There was also one peak in the tweeters rear wave output in the 3kHz range that came up to the level of the woofers output. It appeared to be a function of the throat that was around the diaphragm and surface reflections from the back of the driver. So I cut some little circles out of No Rez and stuck it to the back of the driver. Yeah, it's not exactly pretty, but it did knock down that little peak.





I A/B'ed this one to the old version in mono and noted several real stand out advantages of this opened back version.

With the new version, vocals seemed more relaxed and more detached from the speaker. Piano was cleaner for sure. The old version held each note longer by comparison with a slight trailing edge ring now gone in the newer version.

So I built out the pair and started listening to both of them done this way. This is really special now, even more so than before. The sound stage is now more enveloping. The whole thing is just flat out cleaner and resolution is up a notch over what it was before. These speakers sound even less like speakers and even more transparent. I pulled out a lot of old stuff all over again and actually heard some subtle back ground artifacts in something that I had never noticed before.

Can this get any more fun?


sl_1800

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Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #1 on: 20 Jul 2009, 02:38 am »
Those speakers were great as they were.  Now you have my full attention.

referenceaudionz

Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #2 on: 20 Jul 2009, 02:42 am »
Good to see the suggestion working Danny. My inspiration was from Bastanis...

It worked for me years back on the first versions of Emerald CS1's I'd upgraded. Seemed to reduce distortion coming off the front of the Selenium driver (could verify by this by reaching behind/ covering the hole again while listening) It also added depth to better match the character of the dipole bass/mid. Though I did have to add a foam plug to attenuate a little (not shown here). Also damped the inside back of the remaining cup with some self adhesive computer case foam. It's a neat trick for cheaper/coarser sounding compression drivers.

Couldn't work out how to get into and dipole more expensive (& anyway better sounding) BMS driver upgrades.
Regards, Peter


mhr

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Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #3 on: 20 Jul 2009, 02:43 am »
Hi Danny,

Good to see that good ideas are universal.

Your experimentation follows that of the Bastanis with their AirForce tweeter.

I suspected this modification was possible when I placed my order; thanks for starting the exploration process.

Look forward to getting the kit and please keep us informed on the evolution in crossover design and related sound quality.

Let the fun begin!

MHR

sl_1800

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Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #4 on: 20 Jul 2009, 03:25 am »
Hey Danny have you turned the speaker around and listened to it backwards?  Just for kicks.

grubyhalo

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Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #5 on: 20 Jul 2009, 06:38 am »
Could I hazard a guess that the same treatment would be meted out to the V-2's (the ones with the 8" coax)?

gprro

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Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #6 on: 20 Jul 2009, 06:49 pm »
Was always curious, hows the power handling on the tweeter near crossover? It crosses pretty low if I remember correctly? Any change with the back open, or possibility of overdriving it?

I could see using these in a larger space with a ton of power and double the subs. I think I'd really like these. I still have to finish my Ob7's, haha :lol:, they may be the longest anyone has had a kit without finishing it.

Danny Richie

Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #7 on: 20 Jul 2009, 07:16 pm »
I have really big amps on these things and haven't hurt them yet. They play way to loud (easily) to have to ever push them with the kind of power that I really could lay on them. In fact they play about as loud as I can stand them with a 15 watt amp.

ebag4

Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #8 on: 20 Jul 2009, 07:38 pm »
Edit: Certainly didn't mean to kill this thread.  I would love to hear more about these mods.  I will ask the question via PM.

Best,
Ed
« Last Edit: 23 Jul 2009, 08:48 pm by ebag4 »

ebag4

Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #9 on: 23 Jul 2009, 08:50 pm »
Anything further to report on these mods Danny?

Best,
Ed

Danny Richie

Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #10 on: 23 Jul 2009, 09:18 pm »
I had to start the burn in process all over again with the new network.

Along the way I got a little bit of a sense that the tweeters were a little on the hot side. So I guess they were throwing a little extra energy into the room now with the back open and playing at a level that matched the woofers.

So I changed the resistor level on them a couple of times which added a slight BBC dip near the 1kHz crossover region. It seems to sound smoother though.

Now that they are just about burned in, I will revisit it. I'll also take some more measurements and document where ever I decide to keep it.

I played an Evanescence DVD the night before last and realized that I could easily play it to levels beyond concert level. I kept the volume reasonable, but still loud, and I still had to crank it up a few times to silly levels.

I can't say that the speakers were fatiguing any beyond the fact that they were playing really loud. And my DVD player isn't the smoothest of outputs. So I was pretty happy with that.

Everything else has been just as good as I mentioned before. I am really loving the sound. 

2bigears

Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #11 on: 29 Jul 2009, 12:43 pm »
 :D soooo is a kit ready to go in this format ???? :D

sl_1800

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Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #12 on: 31 Jul 2009, 03:35 am »
Today I had the chance to hear this mod to the V1.  I liked this speaker as it was and now it's even better.  In it's original form there was something in the highs that did not appeal to me but I just couldn't put my finger on what it was.  Now that little thing is gone.  The V1 now has better high freq imaging and a more relaxed sound.

Danny was kind enough to let me compare the V1 to the LS6.  The LS6 is a great speaker in it's own way but for me the V1 is my favorite in that comparison. 

S Clark

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Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #13 on: 1 Aug 2009, 07:53 pm »
I also spent some time with the newest incarnation of the V-1 yesterday :D. The last time I wrote about this speaker I noted that I had never heard a more realistic reproduction of the lower registers of piano.  At that time, I thought that I could detect just a bit of sluggishness from middle C up.  My comment then was that I still liked the Neo tweeter better in that application.  The latest variation of the V-1 has made great strides, and I would be hard pressed to choose one over the other.  Basically, this just confirms SL_1800's evaluation.  What was already a very fine speaker just improved significantly in my book. It just does everything right with bass to die for. (However, the LS-6's were also hooked up and I still slightly prefer them overall- can you spell D-Y-N-A-M-I-C-S?) :drool:

We were listening with my Dodd/Eico Frankenstien amps, which Danny said (and I agree) came very close to performance of his big blues. They really image just amazingly for little guys.  It's the same basic circuit that Gary Dodd is now using in his new Battery Amps.  Mine are still using the 50 year old iron and chasis from two Eico HF-12 mono integrated amps, and still use a 6CA4 rectifier- and you have to put your ear up to the speaker to hear any background noise :D.  I can't imagine how good they must sound on batteries :rock:

sl_1800

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Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #14 on: 12 Aug 2009, 03:25 am »
I visited Danny's place again this afternoon and spent some time with the V-1's again.  This really is an amazing speaker system. aa  Every time I hear this speaker  I find myself being blown away even more than the last time.  The dynamics seemed even greater and the low end even more refined than I remember.  I have wanted to hear my Orion's in the same room with the V-1's but now I'm not so sure I can stand the comparison. :oops:

ebag4

Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #15 on: 13 Aug 2009, 02:22 pm »
Danny,
It sounds from various reports that the mods are coming around nicely.  What is your take on it?  Is this a permanent change to the way the V-1 will be offered?  If so can you let us know what changes would need to be made from the original design?

Thanks,
Ed


Danny Richie

Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #16 on: 13 Aug 2009, 02:34 pm »
Quote
Is this a permanent change to the way the V-1 will be offered?

Yes.

Quote
If so can you let us know what changes would need to be made from the original design?

All of the crossover components, except the main inductor on the woofer, are different. And of coarse you have to cut a hole them the back of the compression driver.

ronpod

Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #17 on: 22 Aug 2009, 02:07 am »
How do these mods sound after some burn in time?

Danny Richie

Re: V-1's go under the knife
« Reply #18 on: 22 Aug 2009, 02:12 am »
More relaxed, smoother, and better for long term listening. I plan to sell all future version this way.