[Gojo]

Hi James

Crown amps seem to be the amp of choice for powering live concerts, inside or out.  I believe they were Bruce Springsteen's  amp of choice while touring. They have also won a number of TEC awards over the years. I've just noticed at there website they are also used in cinemas.  I guess I have two questions:
a) why aren't Bryston amps being used in this context ie powering large venues (although I am aware they used in at the Imax in Ontario place)?
b) what would some of the qualitative and quantitive differences be between a bryston amp and crown?

http://www.crownaudio.com/press.htm

I thank you in advance for your reply

Sincerely

Joe

[Phil A]

Most pro amps operate in either class AB or B and get a reasonable mix of efficiency vs. sound quality, hence high wattage at a not outrageous price and weight. Most home audio operates in class A up to a few watts and then becomes a class AB amp. The other big difference between home and pro sound is the ability to withstand abuse.

[James Tanner]

HI Joe,

It's a good question. 

Over the years these 'touring' type venues have moved more towards very 'high powered --- low weight' amplifiers due too cost of shipping. Most touring groups take their sound system with them on tour so difficulty in moving around multiple racks of amps enters into it as well as switching amps tend to be very 'efficient' power users etc. So high power low weight, efficient design necessitates the use of switching power supplies and in some cases switching output stages.  Given that it is typically 'reinforced sound using large speaker arrays (usually horn) high power is by far the most important criteria ... as well as reliability of course in these types of setups.

Our research has shown that very large (and heavy) 'linear' power supplies and very accurate bipolar output stages are better when ultimate sound quality is the goal. So you will see Bryston in areas like Domes and Arenas where the amplifiers stay put but rarely in touring venues. Also a lot of sound reinforcement venues these days need 'computer' control which Bryston does not address.

Recording studios, Film Scoring sound stages and Mastering Studios is where Bryston is by far the amplifier of choice because high quality sound is critical and weight is not an issue because they are generally located in an equipment room or in the studio control room.

Hope this helps.

James

[srb]

And often the high wattage pro amps are fan cooled without the restriction of fan/air movement SPLs that would be undesirable in the listening room.
 
Steve

[James Tanner]

And often the high wattage pro amps are fan cooled without the restriction of fan/air movement SPLs that would be undesirable in the listening room.
 
Steve

Good point - wish I had thought of that!

james

[Gojo]

Thanks James (and Phil)

That helps alot.  Last item is the Bryston - Imax Connection.  I hit upon Bryston amps a year as I was doing a search on amps used in Imax theatre where high fidelity is desired.  My understanding is it's Sonics who "owns" or supplies the amplication to most Imax theatres, or did?.  Bryston however is used at Ontario place's Imax.  Is there a story there?  Back then I initially thought Bryston was the amp powering Imax theatres but I dont' believe that is the case.

Joe

[James Tanner]

Hi Joe,

Yes Sonics was the one that supplied the amps to IMAX but have since gone out of business.

james

[Laundrew]

HI Joe,

It's a good question. 

Over the years these 'touring' type venues have moved more towards very 'high powered --- low weight' amplifiers due too cost of shipping. Most touring groups take their sound system with them on tour so difficulty in moving around multiple racks of amps enters into it as well as switching amps tend to be very 'efficient' power users etc. So high power low weight, efficient design necessitates the use of switching power supplies and in some cases switching output stages.  Given that it is typically 'reinforced sound using large speaker arrays (usually horn) high power is by far the most important criteria ... as well as reliability of course in these types of setups.

Our research has shown that very large (and heavy) 'linear' power supplies and very accurate bipolar output stages are better when ultimate sound quality is the goal. So you will see Bryston in areas like Domes and Arenas where the amplifiers stay put but rarely in touring venues. Also a lot of sound reinforcement venues these days need 'computer' control which Bryston does not address.

Recording studios, Film Scoring sound stages and Mastering Studios is where Bryston is by far the amplifier of choice because high quality sound is critical and weight is not an issue because they are generally located in an equipment room or in the studio control room.

Hope this helps.

James

   

I was reading James? reply with interest and I was wondering if we are now to a point in the evolution  of home audio systems where reproduced music in our homes is now superior in quality to live music events in some circumstances.

If some venues opt for power and quantity over quality, I believe this is when our home audio systems would produce a superior quality of music. I would not support this argument with respect to venues such as a symphonic performances, where no electronic amplification would be present.

Just a thought, perhaps something to also contemplate.

[JackD201]

I used to do sound reinforcement work so let me chime in too. Aside from the reasons already mentioned earlier, with the usual sound reinforcement set ups, the amps are limited to narrow frequency bands because loudspeaker arrays are crossed over electronically. This means the amps don't have to work with wide frequency distributions and the attendant impedance peaks and dips. Sound reinforcement amps like the crowns therefor do not have to have the power reserves built into them. If you look closely at the specs you'll find that these amps don't double up in power as the impedance is halved. They only have to work with slices of the audio spectrum so they do not have to be "overbuilt" to deal with more demanding speaker loads.

So, the Brystons will perform better with loudspeakers with passive crossovers and if used for sound reinforcement, you'll only be using a fraction of what you paid. It just wouldn't make financial sense to use Brystons for sound reinforcement.

Crown came up with a Reference amplifier about a decade ago that looked like an audiophile product. I don't believe the crossover attempt was very successful though so Crown stuck to the market they serviced best.

[Phil A]

HI Joe,

It's a good question. 

Over the years these 'touring' type venues have moved more towards very 'high powered --- low weight' amplifiers due too cost of shipping. Most touring groups take their sound system with them on tour so difficulty in moving around multiple racks of amps enters into it as well as switching amps tend to be very 'efficient' power users etc. So high power low weight, efficient design necessitates the use of switching power supplies and in some cases switching output stages.  Given that it is typically 'reinforced sound using large speaker arrays (usually horn) high power is by far the most important criteria ... as well as reliability of course in these types of setups.

Our research has shown that very large (and heavy) 'linear' power supplies and very accurate bipolar output stages are better when ultimate sound quality is the goal. So you will see Bryston in areas like Domes and Arenas where the amplifiers stay put but rarely in touring venues. Also a lot of sound reinforcement venues these days need 'computer' control which Bryston does not address.

Recording studios, Film Scoring sound stages and Mastering Studios is where Bryston is by far the amplifier of choice because high quality sound is critical and weight is not an issue because they are generally located in an equipment room or in the studio control room.

Hope this helps.

James

   

I was reading James? reply with interest and I was wondering if we are now to a point in the evolution  of home audio systems where reproduced music in our homes is now superior in quality to live music events in some circumstances.

If some venues opt for power and quantity over quality, I believe this is when our home audio systems would produce a superior quality of music. I would not support this argument with respect to venues such as a symphonic performances, where no electronic amplification would be present.

Just a thought, perhaps something to also contemplate.

It is definitely true that music in the home sounds better than many live concerts.  First of all, the biggest concerts tend to take place in locations designed to view a sporting event.  They are not an optimal design for music.  Secondly, stereo (or even hi-res multi-channel) is artificial.  A well engineered recording can stick you in the sweet spot.  That is not often the case in attending live musical events.  I have a couple of small clubs that get name people (you can actually find the CDs in Best Buy or Borders) that don't sell out bigger venues and I quite enjoy the small venue much better.  One doesn't sell tickets in advance, probably holds a couple of hundred people (standing), give or take a little, and I enjoy getting there early having dinner at the bar often with the performers and listening to the warm-ups too.

[vegasdave]

Crown is a good way to get power on the cheap, but Bryston has the power plus better sound quality. So Bryston wins in my book.

[Mad Mr H]

Things go in cycles.......

For many years now QSC have been one of the main choices in commercial applications.

Prior to that Crown / Amcron were flavour of the year......

Recently Crown have reduced prices and are most cost effective than the same QSC amp, this has seen a switch back to Crown by many QSC users.

For me the build of the QSC has always been better than the Crown - Just my opinion.

A step UP from these options but not limited to the following  MC², Lab Gruppen, D&B sort of price range, where you bring high quality as well as price into the product.


So why Crown (or QSC or others) vs bryston.

Main reason has to be cost, and Bryston just don't come close.

My average commercial FIXED installation will have 10 to 15 amplifiers. Average price per amp lets say ?800, With the higher quality amps mentioned above average price could be say ?2000, Bryston come in at ?4000.


Bryston on average are 3u high, Most commercial amps are 2u high. Bryston will require a minimum of 1u blank/vent in a rack, Othes can stack right on top of each other (see next notes) - So 100% more amps in the same space.

Bryston are convection cooled, Most others are front to rear, or rear to front force air cooled so are ableto stack up very close. IN FIXED COMMECIAL installations the Amp/Pack room is fitted with aircon so close stacking of amps is possible - On tour space is required......

On tour weight counts (as others have mentioned)


So to be fair the Bryson product was not aimed at this side of the commercial market,

You could turn the question round and ask how many homes have Crown installed........

At that point I think it will make the point clear about "horses for courses".

NO ONE offers a 20 year back up on commercial products.

Just my 2 cents, and most points I think others have already covered.

Andy.

[Mad Mr H]

PS - Commercial cinema I do think an area that Bryston could be found in, and there is a place for.....

SADLY, and I mean VERY SADLY most commercial cinemas I know of have gone away from quality and focus more on profit.

I do hope we start to see more quality come back but I dont believe this will happen!!!

More and more people are bringing the cinema to their own HOME, and I think for many years to come this is the trend........

Andy.

[JackD201]

In my brief stint (before switching power supplies) I also preferred QSC to Crown. I actually liked Crest best but they cost a bit more per watt and per RU space from the local importers back then.

[Laundrew]

PS - Commercial cinema I do think an area that Bryston could be found in, and there is a place for.....

SADLY, and I mean VERY SADLY most commercial cinemas I know of have gone away from quality and focus more on profit.

I do hope we start to see more quality come back but I dont believe this will happen!!!

More and more people are bringing the cinema to their own HOME, and I think for many years to come this is the trend........

Andy.

Great point.

My wife and I rarely go to Cinemas any more, perhaps once or twice a year. I have noticed that the sound is mostly substandard and the picture quality is definitely lacking. On top of all this, you get noisy people, individuals bringing babies to movies that seem to cry more often than not (ruin the movie for the rest us because of your screaming brat  ), idiots with cell phones and the fine individual playing foot soccer with the back of your chair.

On top of all this, you get gouged at the concession stand. For us, we spend almost $40 for a trip to the cinema - and that is only for 2 people (admission and snacks). Now in the comfort of your home - awesome picture and sound quality and the pause button when required. Purchasing a Blueray is a lot cheaper than a trip to the cinema. Also, if you wait 6 months after the release of the DVD, it has normally gone down in price. Cinemas have definitely gone the way of the Dodo for me    

[gtaphile]

The old adage if it ain't broke....

Commercial/Pro Sound install and touring are still concentrating on two important advancements -  fine tuning systems to "rooms" for install and touring and smaller/better speaker rigs shortening set-up time for touring and these advancements (computer aided modelingtuning and line array speaker technology) provide large ongoing performance improvements. If and when these differences become subtle, the industry may be in a position to look at amplifier performance versus dollar.