[toobluvr]

I have the following vinyl gear:

3 cartridges
3 arms
2 tables
2 phono sections

Lots of combinations possible, and being typically obsessed,  I've probably tried them all.   

Here's the problem.......

I get a horrible noise with only one very specific combo of cart / arm / phono section.  Hard to describe....kindof like a "whiiiiirrrrrrring" sound.  We're not talking low level hum.  It is hugely loud like it will damage speakers at normal listening levels.  It comes out of both speakers and changes with the volume control. 

If I disconnect one of the cartridge leads...it disappears and gets quiet.

If I disconnect one of the leads into the phono stage, noise disappears and music plays (one channel only, of course).  If I move the lead over to the other channel input, music plays.  Same exact thing happens if I use the other phono lead by itself.

I've approached things methodically, but still can't figure out what piece of gear is causing the problem.  The evidence seems to suggest that for some reason that escapes me, it is just that very specific combo of cart + arm + phono section that is not simpatico.

The problem occurs only with this exact combo:

Dynavector 20X-H + Kuzma Stogi "s" arm +  Air Tight ATC-1 phono section

When the Dyna + Stogi is run into a different phono section, no problems.  This tells me cart + arm are compatible.

When the Dyna is mounted on any other arm, no problem at all into all phono stages.....even the ATC-1, which it was previously noisey with.  This tells me he cartridge is fine, and there are no cartridge / phono section compatability issues.

The Stogi is fine with all other cartridges into all phono stages, including the previously noisey ATC-1.  This tells me the arm wiring over the entire length (from cartridge leads to RCA plugs) is fine.

Seems to defy logic, but there you have it.

I'm baffled. 
 

Any suggestions on how to figure this thing out and fix it are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
John

[Browntrout]

A 'whirring' sound suggests to me you are picking up noise eminating from something outside your stereo.
  With the faulty combination setup on low volume try turning off things in your house and see if the noise reduces/stops.

P.s I'm not claiming to be an expert.

[lazydays]

I have the following vinyl gear:

3 cartridges
3 arms
2 tables
2 phono sections

Lots of combinations possible, and being typically obsessed,  I've probably tried them all.   

Here's the problem.......

I get a horrible noise with only one very specific combo of cart / arm / phono section.  Hard to describe....kindof like a whirring sound.  We're not talking low level hum.  It is hugely loud like it will damage speakers at normal listening levels.  It comes out of the speakers and changes with the volume control. 

If I disconnect one of the cartridge leads...it disappears and gets quiet.

If I plug only one phono lead into the phono stage, noise disappears and music plays out of that channel.  If I move the lead over to the other channel input, music plays.  Same thing with the other phono lead.

I've approached things methodically, but still can't figure out what piece of gear is causing the problem.  The evidence seems to suggest that for some reason that escapes me, it is just that very specific combo of cart + arm + phono section that is not simpatico.

The problem occurs only with this exact combo:

Dynavector 20X-H + Kuzma Stogi "s" arm +  Air Tight ATC-1 phono section

When the Dyna + Stogi is run into a different phono section, no problems.  This tells me cart + arm are compatible.

When the Dyna is mounted on any other arm, no problem at all into all phono stages.....even the ATC-1, which it was previously noisey with.  This tells me he cartridge is fine, and there are no cartridge / phono section compatability issues.

The Stogi is fine with all other cartridges into all phono stages, including the previously noisey ATC-1.  This tells me the arm wiring over the entire length (from cartridge leads to RCA plugs) is fine.

Seems to defy logic, but there you have it.

I'm baffled. 
 

Any suggestions on how to figure this thing out and fix it are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
John

I think it's high level feedback.
* try this; put the system on mute and listen to the music via headphones (if you can)
       a. if the noise goes away then you need to be thingking about a different location for the turntable
       b. if the noise persists; then you must completely isolate the plinth. You may need a sandbox or something like a Ginko Cloud. Lastly does your table have a lid? If it does have one then remove it
gary

[Wayner]

Well, I think Gary is on the right track, tho I thought I read that just one channel did the dirty deed. The other question is of gain. Makes me wonder if your preamp isn't a little goofy, having more gain on one channel versus the other. I'll certainly agree that it's a weird problem. I like that you've been monkeying around with combinations. If you flip the left and right channels around on the phono stage, does the problem follow it? (excuse me if I didn't catch that part), and if it does then flip the wires from the phono stage to the input on the preamp to see if it follows. Then flip the inputs from the table. That may help to tell a story.

Wayner

[Browntrout]

      "If I plug only one phono lead into the phono stage, noise disappears and music plays out of that channel.  If I move the lead over to the other channel input, music plays.  Same thing with the other phono lead."

   This makes me think. 

 If, for the noise to occur, it must be this arm used and both channels connected then I think this is to do with the characteristics of the cables combined.

[Wayner]

Do you have your cartridge wires mixed up?

red = right +
green = right -
white = left +
blue = left -

Just asking.

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

Sir John of Long Beach Is the Air Tight a tube unit?

Sounds like possible tube noise to me.

If it has paired in or output tubes....can you switch position and see if it moves to another side?

Is the whirring one or both speaker/channel sides?

John

[toobluvr]

It's a tough one, I'll grant you that!
Looks like you guys are struggling along with me!
 

Some additional info I didn't mention initially cause I did not think it relevant:

The Air Tight (the offending phono section) is a full function preamp and recent addition to my system.  Its line stage recently developed a problem (channel gain imbalance), so I have been using its phono section only by running its "tape output" into another line stage.

I am bypassing the Air Tight line stage, so it can't be causing the phono problem...can it?

And if it is, why is it fine with all my other cartridges and arms?

Some additional info and responses to some issues / questions raised:

(1)  the noise occurs in both speakers , when all connections are made correctly, and selector switch is simply moved to phono.  The stylus is not in the groove and record is not spinning, so it can't be a vibration or feedback situation.

(2)  there is no lid

(3)  phono cable is integral and one piece from cartridge pins to RCA connections, so I can't try a different one.

Browntrout and Wayner:   The noise occurs in both channels when both phono leads are plugged into the phono stage, and only with this specific cart/arm/phono stage combo.   So reversing any of the phono leads does nothing.  The noise remains. 

If I unplug one of the phono leads (either one)  into the phono section, the noise goes away and music plays fine....one channel only, obviously.  Also, if I unplug one of the cartridge leads, the noise disappears.   Matter of fact, if I simply touch one of the cartridge leads, the noise goes away.  Is this a grounding problem??   

And yes......all cartridge connections are correct with respect to phase and channel.

I have been using vinyl in this system for years, and this has never occurred.  Why all of a sudden would some electrical appliance be introducing noise?

Both tables are well isolated and very immune to feedback, vibration and footfalls.  "Thump test" is passed with flying colors.  With stylus in groove (platter not spinning) nothing is transmitted into the system when the shelf is tapped aggressively.   Matter of fact, even gentle tapping on the plinth transmits nothing.

Chairguy:   The noise is from both speakers.  AirTight is all tubed...phono and line.  It is not a tube problem.  I have tried several different ones and problem persists.  And if it were a tube problem, why would it not consistently be a problem with all arms and cartridges?   

Again...I repeat......there is a problem with this AT phono section with only one specific arm / cart combo.  AT is fine with all other combos, and the arm /cart that makes noise with the AT is fine when used with other phono sections.

so to recap:

Problem combo is:  Dyna cart +  stogi arm + AT phono section

I don't think it is the Dyna cartridge because:  (1)  it works on stogi arm into other phono sections; and (2) it works on other arms into the AT phono

I don't think it is the stogi arm because:  (1) when I put a different cartridge on it, it works fine into the AT;  and (2) it works fine with all cartridges into other phono sections

And I dont think it is the AT phono section because it works fine with all arm and cart combos, apart from this one (Dyna + Stogi).

Oy my head hurts!
 

Come on you vinyl Sherlocks......give me something!

 

[TheChairGuy]

Wow - this is quite a funky problem

I don't know where to go from there....you seem quite methodical and yet no answer has been found - only more questions.  Icky.

John

[lazydays]

Well, I think Gary is on the right track, tho I thought I read that just one channel did the dirty deed. The other question is of gain. Makes me wonder if your preamp isn't a little goofy, having more gain on one channel versus the other. I'll certainly agree that it's a weird problem. I like that you've been monkeying around with combinations. If you flip the left and right channels around on the phono stage, does the problem follow it? (excuse me if I didn't catch that part), and if it does then flip the wires from the phono stage to the input on the preamp to see if it follows. Then flip the inputs from the table. That may help to tell a story.

when he changed cartridges without change, I think that set the direction of the problem. And then you add more than one phono stage to the equation.This sorta takes out everything from the cartride to the phono stage. You have the same problem with all the phono preamps and the same problem with all the cartridges. You might try different cables, but really a bad cable is kinda rare. I'm going to stick with my high level feed back theory.
    Try this; Find an old junk record that's still fairly clean. Now move the table as far behind the face of the speakers as you can, and set it on the floor. Play it. Feed back still there? Now hunt up some old phone books or just plain paper back books. Set the table intop of the books trying to keep it fairly level (dosn't need to be perfect). Play it again. If you still have feed back (assuming the table is completely to the rear of the speakers and much lower the the drivers) I'd say you may have a motor problem. But if the cable from the tone arm to the phonostage is much over three feet long it may also be the problem. The one from the phono stage to the preamp wants to be as short as possible, but still be as isolated as much as possible from the rest of the inter connects.
Keep in touch, and we'll figure it out
gary

Wayner

[toobluvr]

I'm not sure who wrote what, since it is all blocked out as quoted.
But regarding the post above...

I do not have the problem with all phono stages and with all cartridges.

The problem only exists with one specific cart/arm combo, into one specific phono stage. 

When I use that cart/arm combo into another stage, all is fine.

When I use a diff cart on that arm, into the same phono stage, all is fine.

When I use all other cart/arm combos into that phono stage, all is fine.

I know it is confusing, but that is as clear as I can be.
Sorry.
 

I'm not sure what you mean by "high level feedback"?
Is that some sort of vibration being transmitted into the playback system?
Is it some kindof EMI or RFI or interaction across cables / motors / power supplies, etc??

[Browntrout]

I don't know, does the noise occur if the turntable is turned off?

[Wayner]

OK, lets go about this in a different way. The Dynavector cartridge you have is a high output MC cartridge. My catatlog says 2.8mv output. That means it could be run into a regular MM input that takes the usual 5mv, 47K ordinary off the shelf MM cartridge. I don't know anything about your phono preamp, but is it set to an MC input, waiting for a .3mv signal. If that is the case, your amplifing the poor signal about 70db which is why it is very unhappy. It's too much gain and it is howling like a bitch. That's is my diagnosis. If the phono preamp has an MM setting, put it on that. I'll bet the problem goes away.

Wayner

[toobluvr]

I don't know, does the noise occur if the turntable is turned off?

Noise occurs with turntable off....all other gear powered on.....record not spinning....arm in armclip......selector switch on "phono".

[toobluvr]

OK, lets go about this in a different way. The Dynavector cartridge you have is a high output MC cartridge. My catatlog says 2.8mv output. That means it could be run into a regular MM input that takes the usual 5mv, 47K ordinary off the shelf MM cartridge. I don't know anything about your phono preamp, but is it set to an MC input, waiting for a .3mv signal. If that is the case, your amplifing the poor signal about 70db which is why it is very unhappy. It's too much gain and it is howling like a bitch. That's is my diagnosis. If the phono preamp has an MM setting, put it on that. I'll bet the problem goes away.

Wayner

MM inputs are used on the phono stage.  Guaranteed...100% sure.  It only has MM!

Everything, including all wires, are connected 100% correct.  I have checked it countless times...trust me.

Next?
 

[toobluvr]

I just had another thought.....

My original post said this:

If I disconnect one of the leads into the phono stage, noise disappears and music plays (one channel only, of course).  If I move the lead over to the other channel input, music plays.  Same exact thing happens if I use the other phono lead by itself. 

This (plus the fact that this cart / arm combo works fine into every other phono section I have tried) tells me that everything is perfectly fine from stylus tip to phono cable RCA connectors.  When only one side of phono cable is connected, doesn't matter which side,  everything is fine.  It is only when both sides are connected, that the noise appears.   I'm no techie, and i can't explain it, but it seems there is some kindof interaction occurring inside the phono section itself...but only when both L and R leads are attached.

Strange......
Can any further diagnosis be gleened from this?

PS:  of course I have tried several different I/C's to run phono section into line stage.  No joy.