[AUDFILE74]

hello again gang, i was wondering if anyone has had a chance to play with tubedepot's black sables yet?

[Niteshade]

I would like to hear what people have to say about them too...

[Pez]

Other than the "burn in" process which is something anyone who is buying tubes can do on their own, the cryo process used is the same cryo process that Ray Kimber has been doing for years. Most places just dump the parts into a tank and drop the temp to cryo levels. This process is slower and more costly due to the increased amount of liquid nitrogen required. The benefit is less temperature shock related problems which may or may not be apparent with testing, but may be a problem later on during use.

All that said, this isn't something new or particularly original to tube treatment. As a matter of fact they should have been doing it this way in the first place rather than pass it off as some new fangled process. 

[ricmon]

Pricey. 
Do any of you think this treatment will make that big a difference as I have never heard tubes that have had the cryo treatment.

[AUDFILE74]

that's why i am making this post, i want to know if anyone felt they heard a diff. that is a part of audio i still enjoy, discovery. but for my project i'd rather not be 2000$ in before i realise that this was not a good sonic return on my invest ment.i'm picky like that

[richidoo]

I bought a pair of Black Sable 12au7 RCA cleartops, and 2 quads of Black Sable SED EL34. They were quality tubes, no problems, but I did not have un-cryoed equivalent to compare. In the end they did not sound as good as the uncryoed stock tubes of different brand. The circuit is tuned for the stock tube, changing tubes moves away from the designers intended sound. Tube depot answers questions and delivers the good quickly, so I trust them after a half dozen purchases. But often they don't have hwat I want, and the prices continue to rise on NOS stuff, so I buy from them less. Nowadays I buy from Jim McShane, or Grant Fidelity.  If I needed something cryoed, I would send it to Black Sands Audio, or Cryoparts.
Rich

[Pez]

I have cryo'd tubes through Kimber Kables whcih uses almost the exact same process. The difference is noticeable. I would have to say the biggest change to the sound is twofold.

One instruments and vocals are much improved because of more body.  I know that's one of those audio cliche words, but in my interpretation more body means the sound of the vocals/instruments is more robust and outlined in a way that makes it's presentation more believable. This seemed to be consistant with all the tubes that were cryo'd.

Two, more extended highs. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the tube. I had some that drastically helped the sound in the upper range such as with JJs and Yugos. I had others that made the highs really gritty like with Electro Harmonix. It could have been the fact that I had been using the tubes prior to the cryo treatment, but full disclosure the results may not necessarily be positive everytime.

I know it's not through the "Black Sable" program so results may vary depending on a few things, but they were properly cryo'd.

[bunky]

I bought a octet of Black Sable SED EL34's from Rich and ran them in my VTL MB100 mono's replacing non cryoed SED's and the BlackSable EL34's seemed just a tad smoother than the stock SED's. I also have a octet the Genelex KT77 reissues and i think that they are a pretty nice tube too.

[Niteshade]

Instead of a cryo treatment, I would like to see the insides of a tube heat treated. If they could heat treat the metal and boil out all the gas before the innards are bottled, I believe it would make tubes last 4x's as long, maybe longer. I'd also like a very,very hard vacuum inside the glass. 

[Pez]

Not possible with most tubes. Boiling off gases from the metals is probably one of the least of the problems. The vacuum pulled is only as good as the process and the strength of the tube. Most tube manufacturers actually inject the tube with an inert gas and then pull the vacuum because they can't pull a decent one. That's why some tubes will glow funky blue or green or other various colors.

BTW obviously results of Cryo may vary, bunky says cryo made his tubes sound more "smooth" that's not something I heard at all with any of the tubes I've had cryo'd.

[Niteshade]

Nearly all of my tube failures are from gas.  I had one 813 go bad due to a unwound grid wire. I have had others go microphonic. Never really had one reach a normal end to its life... I take that back, a few 12AX7's just faded away on me, lost 90% of their gain.

There should be a way to get more gas out of the metal. Most likely just the plate material could be treated.

[bunky]

cryogenic treatment and heat treating both take stress out of metal but heat expands the molecules and freezing contracts the metal and can alter the grain structure.they use cryo on internal parts for racing engines such as crankshafts or connecting rods and fasteners.they also use cryo for stress relief on custom made gunbarrels as well.

[bunky]

Not possible with most tubes. Boiling off gases from the metals is probably one of the least of the problems. The vacuum pulled is only as good as the process and the strength of the tube. Most tube manufacturers actually inject the tube with an inert gas and then pull the vacuum because they can't pull a decent one. That's why some tubes will glow funky blue or green or other various colors.

BTW obviously results of Cryo may vary, bunky says cryo made his tubes sound more "smooth" that's not something I heard at all with any of the tubes I've had cryo'd.

Hey Pez, tubes are very circuit dependant and may sound totally different from one amplifier to another

[Pez]

Very true! I doubt anyone would have exactly the same result in two different systems.

One thing's for sure, we definately won't have similar results given you have the audio physics sparks (one of my personal favorite cone domes btw), and I have the RM40s a ribbon based system.