[poseidonsvoice]

Hi fellas, Ethan Winer, Bryan, Glenn K., and all others.

Recently I made a very wise and astute purchase of a pair of Tritraps, a trio of 242's, and a Bass Pillar. It has made a tremendous difference in the performance of my system, but has also wanted me to go further. Even with the treatments installed, except for the last 242 which will be mounted on the ceiling, there is still slap echo noted. Bass is excellent and detailed. Mind you my speakers currently only go down to about 50Hz and then have a 6th order rolloff due to the EBS alignment. The active part of the room is about 11.5 feet wide and 12 feet deep with both a 7 foot and 8 foot ceiling. Had it been just been an 8 foot ceiling I would've installed a pair of Tritraps in each of the front corners behind the speakers (the SBIR zone). Unfortunately there is a very nice HVAC system that cuts into the room on the entire right hand side as seen in the pictures below. This cuts the ceiling down to about 7 feet and makes the ceiling assymmetric.  The speakers will be replaced within the next 3-4 months with the awesome GedLee Abbey loudspeakers which are a sealed design and that many of you are familiar with. In addition there will be at least 2 subwoofers in this room (currently U-frame design or a modified dipole so to speak).  I've juggled a few ideas in my head in order to improve the room acoustics.  I typically listen as loud as I can (average 80dB at the listening position) which means these tiny speakers with their 5.25 inch Vifa Midwoofers are really pumping. Hence the need for GedLee's Abbeys!

Here are a few pictures:

First is a picture of the 'active' part of the room. I am standing behind the listening couch, in other words the back wall is really about 10 feet behind me. Behind the curtain are two large windows about 4 feet tall and 2 feet wide. There is a 242 on the floor which will be mounted on the ceiling, and there is also a carpet on the floor. The floor is tiled.



Next is a picture taken while I was sitting on the couch facing the left speaker. You see a 242 taking care of a 1st reflection point, and a Tritrap behind the speaker.



Moving the camera a little to the left shows a bare spot on the wall which is the secondary reflection point. You also see a little bit of a door frame creeping in.



Moving the camera all the way to the right shows the right speaker, another Tritrap behind the right speaker and a 242 placed at the 1st reflection point. Note the assymmetry of the ceiling, right above the Tritrap, it is now only 7 feet as opposed to 8 feet.



Moving the camera further right shows the 242 at the 1st reflection point, a ceiling that is only 7 feet tall, and a Bass Pillar in the corner. I cannot see this Bass Pillar when sitting in the listening chair so I actually had to get up and take this picture. Notice also a bare rear wall which is directly in front of the right loudspeaker. I am sure sound reflects off of here.





Next is the saving grace of this room. The length of room extends a good 22 feet. This picture was taken while standing in between the two loudspeakers and looking out.



So here is what I was planning. First of all, I hate the multiple corners that exist in this room especially because there is an HVAC running through the ceiling on the right hand side. Suddenly instead of having the normal number of corners, I have so much more. I am wondering if I should install an additional set of 242's at the secondary reflection points and if installing a pair of 244's between the loudspeakers would be useful as well. I've also wondered about getting another set of Tritraps, installing one on top of the left Tritrap and the other one in the right rear corner where the Bass Pillar is. The Bass Pillar would either be sold, returned or recycled, so I am really not sure about this. In addition, I don't know if having a pair of Tritraps on the left front corner and only one Tritrap on the right front corner would cause issues due to assymmetry. There are other improvements that can be made as well, including installing Ethan's Corner Traps, however, I don't want to invest so much given that in 2 years I will be building a custom room. So much of these room treatments must be interchangeable.

I do have plans to measure the current room as well at least from 300 Hz on down but haven't gotten there yet.

Thanks in advance especially to Ethan Winer, Bryan P, Glenn K., Mike Galusha, etc...

Anand.

[geezer]

I have no experience with room treatments, but I'd think that asymmetries in the room would be a plus.

[jimdgoulding]

Oh, man, in my experience, that is precisely what I would do under the same circumstances except that I would give a listen with my speakers nearer the end of that fine rug and the 242's accordingly.  I like as open of a stage as I can get in all dimensions but I wouldn't want to sacrifice balance.  Good listening, Anand.  I'm feelin ya.

[poseidonsvoice]

Just to add a little bit more detail. The speakers are about 6.5 to 7 feet apart.  The distances from each tweeter to each respective side wall are equal. They are about 20-22 inches from the rear wall measuring from the rear of the baffle. I am sitting roughly 8 feet from each speaker. Speakers are toed in slightly as shown. The rug is soon to be replaced, not my style, it looks yucky! Sorry about the poor quality of photos, the flash makes the room look brighter than it is, and as you can see there is no ambient light.

Anand.

[bpape]

I wouldn't do the asymmetry thing up front.  We could custom size a Tri Trap for the front right but that's not ideal for the future.  I'd keep the bass control as is including the pillar.

Another 242 on each side wall would be beneficial IMO.  In your case, I don't think the 242's on the front wall are as critical nor as good a use as elsewhere in the room.  I think the biggest issue you're having is just the hard floor and the very long echos from the length - while at the same time, a really quick slap on the right from the short wall.  I'd use a 242 there in addition to the pillar.  I'd use the rest on the ceiling spread throughout the space.

Bryan

[poseidonsvoice]

If I used another trio of 242's, then 2 would be used on the second reflection points, the third on the ceiling side by side with the other 242. However, that leaves the bare rear wall empty. Why not use a Monster bass trap there right next to the Bass Pillar or would it not absorb at high enough frequencies to make a difference? Both the Monster Bass Trap and Bass Pillars would be usable in future rooms.

Or would you use two trio sets of 242's (i.e. six of them). Two would be at the second reflection points. One would cover that rear back wall. That would leave a total of four 242's for the ceiling.

Best,
Anand.

[bpape]

With the speakers you have and their bass extension, I don't think a Monster is the best use of your funds.  A 242 there would provide what's needed.

You could do the 2 sets of 242's in this room certainly.  Just trying to consider what's most useful in the future too.  I'd probably do:

242's on the other reflection points

242 on the wall by the Pillar

244 pair on the ceiling

I think that's a better compromise of what you need now and what you'll need later.

Bryan

[poseidonsvoice]

Okay, there is still one 242 left, the one you see on the carpet in my first picture! Would you put that on the ceiling as well? What is the advantage of a pair of 244's on the ceiling versus the 242's (other than that they come in pairs?!).

Thanks again!

Anand.

[bpape]

Yes.  Other 242 on the ceiling.  244's would go on the ceiling more behind you for general decay and echo control.  The advantage is primarily more usability later down the road rather than having 9 244 panels.  In the next room, you'll have 6 (probably 2 for each side and 2 for the front wall) and then the 244's for the back of the room or a cloud over your head.  Overall, just a more portable set of treatments. (and it's a bit less expensive )

Bryan

[Dan_ed]

Hello Anand,

If you don't mind a question. I am curious as to how effective you feel the curtains you are using are. I have an 8' wide patio door and ~30x55" window to deal with. My cheap, thin window treatments have to go.

Thanks,
Dan

[poseidonsvoice]

Dan,

Great question. My curtains are pretty thin and personally, I don't think they are useful as room treatments, which is why I asked if placing a pair of 244's between the loudspeakers would be useful. I am afraid that thick curtains would end up sucking up too much of the high end so that is out of the question as well. The goal is balance. That small rear wall certainly reflects a ton off from the right speaker. I thought placing a pair of 244's between the speakers can be beneficial. However, in retrospect, treating that rear wall first would be the way to go with a 242 as Bryan has suggested.

Anand.

[bmckenney]

How much effort have you put in to speaker placement?  It looks like your speakers are less than two feet out in to the room.  I would have thought they should be about 5 feet out and maybe a little closer together.  I can't help but think you could reap some great benefits from speaker placement at this point, more so than extra room treatment.  Benefits in tone, dynamics and room energizing.

[poseidonsvoice]

How much effort have you put in to speaker placement?  It looks like your speakers are less than two feet out in to the room.  I would have thought they should be about 5 feet out and maybe a little closer together.  I can't help but think you could reap some great benefits from speaker placement at this point, more so than extra room treatment.  Benefits in tone, dynamics and room energizing.

Agreed. Lots of effort have been placed and even more to come. When you pull them out more than 20-24 inches out as I have done, you lose bass response considerably. These speakers are the North Creek Okara II's. Too much or overripe bass isn't an issue for me as it is setup currently. Lack of bass is, but that is because of a small midwoofer, etc... 5 feet out and I would basically have no bass and the speakers would be at the midpont of the rug! The speakers can be placed a little closer, although the center image is pretty damn good as is.

Thanks for comments. Here is the link to the Okara II measurements and tips on how to set it up, etc...it is in fact designed to be very, very close to the rear wall in very small rooms (i.e. its a bookshelf specific speaker), so pulling it out has already given me lots of improvement in ambience, imaging, etc...but with some loss in bass of course. With the room treatments, I got back bass detail although bass volume did decrease. Staging is pretty spooky real already.

A quote from George Short "the Okara II has been designed specifically to perform at its best when placed either on a bookshelf or stand within two feet of the rear wall."

In hindsight, I might be done, but I do think that the secondary reflection points, the right rear wall and ceiling need to be treated bare minimum. I've also moved my listening seat forwards and backwards which I am still experimenting with.

Anand.

[bmckenney]

I can see why the manufacturer would suggest they be close to the wall because they are not full range so users might get better perceived bass closer to the wall.  But from a room acoustics point of view I think but am not sure that there are certain points in the room further away from that wall that you'll get as equal bass as when up close.  Try plugging your room dimensions in to the Cardas room setup calculator and see where the suggested speakers position is.  I'll bet its around 5'.  And try moving the coach forwards at different intervals too.

I've noticed that as I move speakers out from the wall that I get different bass response and eventually as I keep moving out I get just as 'deep' bass as when the speaker was closer to the wall.  The benefits I noticed on top of good bass response are things you'll never get with the speakers close to the wall IMO and these so make it worth getting the speakers out in the room.  It's partially more depth and space and ambiance, but the best benefits were dynamics and energy and that 3-D wall of sound where the speakers disappear (in a different and better way than the way speakers disappear when closer to the wall).

Since you have a dedicated room, try it.  Plug the numbers in to the Cardas website, grab a tape measure and some masking tape and maybe a laser, and give it a shot.  And don't be afraid to move them way out in to the room just to see if that magic happens.  If it doesn't, go back.  And be sure to try it again with your new speakers because the results may be different compared to the speakers you have now, especially if your new speakers are full range.

I have my speakers over 5' out in to our living room and my wife will never convince me to move them back.  It may not be that aesthetically pleasing to her, but I could never move them back because I don't want to lose the sound I have today.  Anything less isn't leveraging the investment I have in my gear.  And if you're lucky enough to have a dedicated listening room, you shouldn't have any reason not to move the speakers out if the sound is so much better.  And I have no inclination to use room treatment now (other than I a couple of GIK Pillars one day).

Bryan

[poseidonsvoice]

Since you have a dedicated room, try it.  Plug the numbers in to the Cardas website, grab a tape measure and some masking tape and maybe a laser, and give it a shot.  And don't be afraid to move them way out in to the room just to see if that magic happens.  If it doesn't, go back.  And be sure to try it again with your new speakers because the results may be different compared to the speakers you have now, especially if your new speakers are full range.

This is precisely what I have started to do this week. If you look closely, you'll see some blue tape where the speakers are. I'm also using Jim Smith's Get Better Sound to great extent. Earl's Abbey speakers are setup completely differently. You don't fire them out, but heavily toe them in so that they cross about 2 feet in front of you. They are good to about 60 Hz (they are designed to be used with multiple subs) however, its a very plentiful 60 Hz and have a very much less shallow rolloff below that because of a sealed design.

And I have no inclination to use room treatment now (other than I a couple of GIK Pillars one day).

  Speaker setup, well designed loudspeakers that employ controlled directivity such Earl Geddes' Summa designs, and finally room treatment are at the heart of making a great system to a reference one. Sorry but anything less isn't leveraging the investment I have in MY gear 

Anand.

[bmckenney]

Jim's book isn't bad, but there a couple of things I find weak.  It does not cover speaker coupling or decoupling and the floor, which IMO is a big miss.  If you don't have that correct, all the work put in to setup could be a waste of time.  For example, if you have a suspended floor and you use spikes and you go thru the setup location labour, you'll never be happy and you'll be constantly wondering why the sound is lean and bright and you might think its placement related when its not.

What I do like about the book is the focus on getting the tone, dynamics and room energizing right with speaker placement, over things like imaging and soundstaging.  I think that is a great philosophy.  Once you get the first three things right, imaging and staging is childs play.

[poseidonsvoice]

Okay, set up the speakers per Cardas recommendation. The speakers were pretty much 5 feet out into the room and 3 feet away from the side walls. The distance from the side walls was only slightly more increased than what I had them in my previous configuration. Soundstaging is a little better, voices are more solidified in space. But there is one major difference which you can hear even if you are not in the room itself (i.e. in the hallway leading to the room). Body. There is a very big loss of body to the music regardless of what instrument or voice you are listening to. Especially prominent in male vocals. So I moved them back to about 2.5 feet from the rear wall and the body is back and my foot was tapping again.  This entire session took about 3 hours so I knew I gave the Cardas method the good 'ol college effort.

The speakers are not full range. I've left the tape marks as is, because when I do finish building a pair of subs, I might revisit the Cardas configuration. I agree with Jim Smith's observation that if tone isn't right, who cares about soundstaging etc...With the Cardas configuration and my existing speakers, the tone wasn't right, so back they go, and voila, the tone is back again. I've also found that rooms that are very well treated with bass trapping don't need to have the speakers so far out into the room.

Floor decoupling, ceiling design and suspended ceilings are very well covered in Earl Geddes' book Premium Home Theater. Speaker decoupling is something that is only touched on by various books and some think its just floobydust, although I disagree.

Anand.

[bmckenney]

I am surprised at the results, but since the speakers are not full range maybe that has a lot to do with it.  Listening from the next room or outside the room is something that I subscribe too.  It's a great way to gauge for dynamics and tone.  Maybe things will change with the new speakers.  One thing I found with my room and speakers is that the best dynamics and tone came when I literally used Cardas's math for distance from the side walls and moved the speakers closer together than I would have thought, away from the side walls even though I thought closer to the walls would have resulted in reinforced bass.  And I was expecting a more closed in stage but that wasn't the case.

Looks like your floor is non-suspended and you're coupling with spikes, which follows the general rule.  I know in my case with suspended floors the sound leans out with spikes and sounds more natural and fuller with even the most basic decoupling.  I don't know what the sound is like if one decouples the speakers with a non-suspended floor.