[jsaliga]

I consider information provided on the website to be documentation.

I bought a Nighthawk and Ray never told me that I needed to refer to his website for formal instructions on the proper use of his device when I ordered from him over the phone.  That information should come with the printed materials supplied with the product, and anyone who understands anything about product liability will tell you that.

I like Ray too and think he's a nice guy...but he doesn't get a free pass.  Great customer service isn't what happens when everything goes right and works out as planned -- that is what everyone expects.  The mark of great customer service is when things go wrong and a vendor goes the extra mile to make it right.  Ray hasn't done that in this case, and he is going to end up taking some lumps for it until he does.  He will also have to decide if the measly $50 or $100 (or whatever) in repair costs was really worth a thread like this and an unhappy customer.

--Jerome

[jsaliga]

Ok.  I've received a few PMs defending Ray so I am going to clarify my position publicly.

I don't really care whether or not the failure is due to a shortcoming in the product's design.  That really is beside the point.  The reason I am being tough on Ray is because he is not giving the customer the benefit of the doubt, and unless he can prove conclusively that the failure was caused by customer negligence then he should go the extra mile, treat this as a warranty repair, and make his customer happy.  To me going the extra mile means going beyond what is required of you.  Beating the customer over the head with vague terms in an unlimited warranty that has magically acquired some limits is not going the extra mile.  It is looking for a way out.

I would feel differently if Kevin did something with the product that the owner's manual said not to do or if an entire chain of devices failed.  And I am sure if the former happend and Ray pointed it out to Kevin then he would have taken responsiblity for it. Kevin may not like having to pay the repair bill, but he would have no doubt that under these circumstances he was treated fairly.

In contrast, let me share with everyone what I feel is a great example of world class customer service.  I recently bought a new pair of speakers from an AC Site Sponsor.  At a cost of several thousand dollars, it was the most I have spent on a speaker system.  For the first few months after I took delivery I was having problems with the way the speakers sounded.  The vendor provided support and advised me on how to tune the enclosures and the compression driver.  Try as I might I was still having problems and was starting to get pangs of regret that I just spent a lot of money on speakers I wasn't happy with.  The vendor, on his own with no cajoling from me, offered to have the speakers shipped back to his shop for evaluation at his expense.  He would make whatever adjustments might be necessary or replace drivers as needed and then ship them back to me at his cost.  He went on to say that if I was not satisfied after that he would undo the sale, take the speakers back, and refund my money.  That is my idea of great customer service, as he willingly offered to go the extra mile.  As it turned out, sending the speakers back wasn't necessary and eventually it all worked out, but I damn sure appreciate how far that vendor was willing to go in order to make me happy.  If anyone is wondering who that AC Sponsor was it is Duke LeJeune of Audiokinesis.  As far as I'm concerned he won himself a loyal customer for life.  I can't recommend him enough.

To me that is world class customer service, and in a hobby where we are spending hundreds and even thousands of dollars on our toys anything less just doesn't cut it.  We aren't buying Emmerson clock radios at Wal Mart folks.

--Jerome

[95Dyna]

That's exactly what I was talking about. How difficult would it be to have the AC supply switch off after the battery is fully charged? You could turn on the supply manually by pushing a button and the red light would come on again. That way the unit is always plugged in and the supply can't override the battery. The green light could activate supply turn off switch and could only be turned back on manually. Maybe you have to be Japanese to figure out something like that?  On second thought, they'd probably design it to be fully automatic.
neo

Probably not that difficult.  I don't know as I'm not an engineer.  I do know that it would cost more, be bigger and possibly introduce more noise all of which run contrary to the design objectives Ray has stated..  I would say if someone doesn't like the lack of automation of the Nighthawk there are competing products that provide those capabilities.  Besides, give Ray credit for designing or using a battery that provides 8 hours of operation between charges making this a non issue in my opinion.

I do agree with jsaliga on the customer service angle on this issue.  It seems Ray has fallen prey to being "penny wise and pound foolish".

[neobop]

Probably not that difficult.  I don't know as I'm not an engineer.  I do know that it would cost more, be bigger and possibly introduce more noise all of which run contrary to the design objectives Ray has stated..  I would say if someone doesn't like the lack of automation of the Nighthawk there are competing products that provide those capabilities.  Besides, give Ray credit for designing or using a battery that provides 8 hours of operation between charges making this a non issue in my opinion.

I do agree with jsaliga on the customer service angle on this issue.  It seems Ray has fallen prey to being "penny wise and pound foolish".

Probably wouldn't cost much more (how much are a few parts like this?),  doesn't have to be any bigger and could probably be implemented without any additional noise. This is the power supply switching from charge mode to operate mode, not the audio circuitry. There's already something that prevents the battery from overcharging? Guess it could be like a cell phone AC charger with a chip.  Having the wall supply plugged in all the time might have prevented the extensive damage. BTW, it's said to be playable for 48hrs not 8.

Users say this is a great sounding unit. I have no reason to doubt that. I also have no reason to doubt that static build-up like that is much more common than you think. It's shoddy not having any instructions that at least tell you about what you bought and set-up considerations. You have to go to a web to find out anything?

[jsaliga]

BTW, it's said to be playable for 48hrs not 8.

I listen to a lot of records and I usually have to recharge my Nighthawk once per week.  I don't see that as a problem.  I also don't have any complaints about its performance.  It compared favorably to, and is quieter than, the Eastern Electric MiniMax phono preamp that I used to own, and it sells for about $1,500.

The only issue I have here is customer service related.

--Jerome

[shaizada]

Probably wouldn't cost much more (how much are a few parts like this?),  doesn't have to be any bigger and could probably be implemented without any additional noise. This is the power supply switching from charge mode to operate mode, not the audio circuitry. There's already something that prevents the battery from overcharging? Guess it could be like a cell phone AC charger with a chip.  Having the wall supply plugged in all the time might have prevented the extensive damage. BTW, it's said to be playable for 48hrs not 8.

Users say this is a great sounding unit. I have no reason to doubt that. I also have no reason to doubt that static build-up like that is much more common than you think. It's shoddy not having any instructions that at least tell you about what you bought and set-up considerations. You have to go to a web to find out anything?

From what I see, costs are Tantalums at about $4.5 per piece....6 of them in there.  Battery, about $18, $14 or so for shipping via Fedex.  3 or 4 hours of labor to get it all up to spec.  There definitely is some investment of time and parts without a doubt, much more than the $50 that was charged.  Oh well...I'm sure Ray will chime in if/when he reads this.

[kgturner]

I don't want this thread to devolve as a slight against Ray or his business. I'm grateful that I'm only coming out of pocket $50 for the repairs. I already sent him $18 cash with the Nighthawk for return shipping of the unit. I was distraught as when he initially contacted me about the damage, he stated that it would be about $150 for the repair, but he left the door open saying that he might have to replace the entire internal board which would've taken the repair into the hundreds of dollars. Ray was very respectful towards me over the phone and I'm sure if I really pressed him on the issue, he would've done it for free. I know he's not running a charity so, as I said, I'm not gonna fight with him over $50.

Kevin T

[Ray Samuels]

I feel bad for what happened to the F-117 that Mr. Turner owns.
I truly want to let you know that this kind or incident should have never happened but then you can’t control static electricity if it happens nor even imagine how much voltage it contains some times.
The Tantalum Caps in the Nighthawk are rated way above the battery voltage power.
But when they are hit with that kind of high static voltage, as Mr. Turner described, it will fry the caps & the battery circuitry. 
I feel bad for asking Mr. Turner for the price of the battery because truly that is not my nature, I only charge for shipping the unit to the customer as it is on my web site.
To this I am guilty & I apologize to all those who commented on this forum about the $50.00 charge.
I have spend 4-5 hours to remove, clean, replace caps, battery & a chip & fully inspected the F-117 to make sure it is up to what it should be before shipping it to Mr. Turner.
The repair was done in one day and was shipped the next. I have not received the money yet from Mr. Turner but if I do I will tare the $50.00 check & not cash it.
Ray Samuels

[Gopher]

 

Four to five hours free labor alone was generous for something that failed due to an external variable rather than shoddy product.  The fact that you're going to include the parts as well speaks to your character.

[kgturner]

Well, I guess I don't need to mail that check after all. Thanks, Ray.

Kevin T

[lonewolfny42]

A happy ending....nice !  

[neobop]

This is an unusual incident. I think everyone got caught by surprise. If I were looking for a new phono stage or preamp, I would definitely look into an Emmeline.

neo

[wroman214]

  I am in the process of adding a KAB power supply to my Technics SP-25 and had some questions regarding the way the ground for the table (not the arm) was wired. The person that built the plinth the ground for the table runs to the earth ground via an IEC (3-wire) at the back of the table.  It works just fine like this and noise is at its lowest.  The original owwners manuel say that ground post should be connected to the ground on the amp but mine has none that can be accesed externally and to further add confusion most equipment at the time was only wired with a two prong plug.  I am using a Nighthawk also so having a suitable ground path seems important to me.
  The KAB power supply has a remote sense plug to plug the turntable in to but that is only 2 wire, the remote sense allows the table to turn off and on the power supply but requires the regular power cord to fitted.

[slovell1]

When I first bought my Scout I ran it without a mat as described in the manual. I was amazed at the amount of static buildup this thing was making so I put my trusty old Discwasher Antistat mat on the platter. No more static electricity buildup period. In all my years of running turntables I have never run across anything that works as well as this mat and its over thirty years old.
Regards, Sam   

[*Scotty*]

A simple step to take to enable you minimize the chances of this kind static related problem from occurring is to connect an 18ga wire to the ground on the wall outlet.
 Then before you ever touch the tonearm or the preamp you touch the grounded wire and discharge the static electrical field that has built up on your body. This is the step I have taken in my system and so far I haven't killed anything yet due to an accidental static discharge. My relative humidity has been as low as 15% this winter.
Scotty

[kgturner]

Ha! What a blast from the past. My Nighthawk is still going strong and I haven't had any other problems with it. I bought a used VPI HW16.5 off of eBay about a month after I originally posted this. Wet cleaning my records *significantly* reduced the static problem I was having. Some times the records have a little static-y feeling, but it's nothing like it used to be where they almost felt stuck to the platter at times.

Kevin T

[neobop]

  I am in the process of adding a KAB power supply to my Technics SP-25 and had some questions regarding the way the ground for the table (not the arm) was wired. The person that built the plinth the ground for the table runs to the earth ground via an IEC (3-wire) at the back of the table.  It works just fine like this and noise is at its lowest.  The original owwners manuel say that ground post should be connected to the ground on the amp but mine has none that can be accesed externally and to further add confusion most equipment at the time was only wired with a two prong plug.  I am using a Nighthawk also so having a suitable ground path seems important to me.
  The KAB power supply has a remote sense plug to plug the turntable in to but that is only 2 wire, the remote sense allows the table to turn off and on the power supply but requires the regular power cord to fitted.

You normally don't connect the table ground and arm ground together. You could set up a ground loop that way. Right now I guess your floating the table ground and it's working okay? With some older servo controlled direct drives the ground can make a difference with speed stability. I don't know if there will be much difference with your quartz SP-25. You could try using the ground screw on the wall outlet, as suggested for static. Sometimes these aren't even connected though, and sometimes they're painted which defeats a connection. Maybe there's a chassis screw on your amp or preamp you could try. It has to contact an unpainted surface. I'm not sure if this will make any difference though. You could call Kevin at KAB and ask him. He probably knows as much as anyone about these tables and his power supply.