[BobC]

OK I know Redbook has a 16 bit depth and a 44.1kHz sample rate.  And I understand that 24/96 recordings use a more bits at a higher rate.

What I don't know is....what media uses 24/96?  Don't think it SACD.  Maybe DVD-A?  Blu-ray audio??? 

The reason I ask is if I was to purchase a new DAC, is there an advantage to purchasing a 24/96 DAC if the media / files I send to it are all 16/44.1?  Or should I think of a 24/96 (or 24/192) DAC as a machine that simply upsamples the native 16/44.1 file to a higher resolution?  I'm sure this is a debatable question, but what is the audible advantage of the upsampling?

Last, if I rip a CD (native 16/44.1) to my computer, can I use the software to rip at 24/96?  Is there a particular program or codec that does this?  If so, is it audibly worth while?

Thanks, Bob

[ted_b]

So, yes redbook is 16/44.1.  But there are several sources that are higher native resolution of 24/96 or higher...such as HDAD's (DVD-Video side being 24/96, DVD-A side being 24/192) and native 24/96 pcm DVD's (Neil Young Live at Massey, Greatest hits, etc.).  Also, many download sites are making 24/96 wav and FLAC files available for download.  And DVD-A (although proprietary and not rippable) is anything from 24/48 to 24/192, the majority being 24/96.  SACD is another algorithm entirely (based on DSD 1 bit recording, not apples to apples comparable).

Those examples are NATIVE 24/96.  That doesn't mean that you can't take a 16/44.1 source and upsample (via upsampling DAC) to 24/96, although opinions vary greatly about the value herein (strangely enough the best upsampling sound I've ever heard and the only one where I would say the upsampled 24 bit track was noticeable better than the original 16 bit..is the free SRC upsampler available in the older 0.8.3 version of Foobar, a pc music client).  Net/net, it's still about execution.  A great sounding redbook will always beat a poorly recorded 24/96, but everything else being equal (big assumption) always try to buy the highest resolution native file you can get....and buy the best DAC you can afford.  Sample rate and resolution are but two features to look for (along with purity of analog section, build quality, etc.) so if it's 24/96 or 24/192, then great...it'll handle the DVD-V side of HDAD's, pcm on DVD's (not DVD-A) and downloaded files better than 16/44 dacs.....again assuming all else is equal!!

[BobC]

So a 16/44.1 DAC would limit the types of files I send it, correct? 

So what's the big deal with "NOS" DACs?  Wouldnt these limit you to classic 16/44.1 redbook files?

[ted_b]

An NOS dac is a non-oversampling dac, but that doesn't theoretically mean it won't accept higher resolutions than 16/44, (it just won't oversample.)....just in reality most NOS dacs ouit there are indeed 16/44.  To oversimplify (or is it "upsimplify'?)The NOS dac fans say that non-oversampling DACs are purer and less fatiguing because they keep the signal from going through too many iterations and digital filters.  The other camp says that oversampling is required to clean up the very high frequencies and smooth out the anomalies.  This is different from upsampling...which is purely a digital domain exercise that interpolates or guesses as to what something would sound like at a higher sample rate and fills in those guesses.  Again....wayyyy oversimplified.

[zybar]

So, yes redbook is 16/44.1.  But there are several sources that are higher native resolution of 24/96 or higher...such as HDAD's (DVD-Video side being 24/96, DVD-A side being 24/192) and native 24/96 pcm DVD's (Neil Young Live at Massey, Greatest hits, etc.).  Also, many download sites are making 24/96 wav and FLAC files available for download.  And DVD-A (although proprietary and not rippable) is anything from 24/48 to 24/192, the majority being 24/96.  SACD is another algorithm entirely (based on DSD 1 bit recording, not apples to apples comparable).

Those examples are NATIVE 24/96.  That doesn't mean that you can't take a 16/44.1 source and upsample (via upsampling DAC) to 24/96, although opinions vary greatly about the value herein (strangely enough the best upsampling sound I've ever heard and the only one where I would say the upsampled 24 bit track was noticeable better than the original 16 bit..is the free SRC upsampler available in the older 0.8.3 version of Foobar, a pc music client).  Net/net, it's still about execution.  A great sounding redbook will always beat a poorly recorded 24/96, but everything else being equal (big assumption) always try to buy the highest resolution native file you can get....and buy the best DAC you can afford.  Sample rate and resolution are but two features to look for (along with purity of analog section, build quality, etc.) so if it's 24/96 or 24/192, then great...it'll handle the DVD-V side of HDAD's, pcm on DVD's (not DVD-A) and downloaded files better than 16/44 dacs.....again assuming all else is equal!!

Ted,

What are some of the sites that have 24/96 FLAC files?

George

[ted_b]

Ted,

What are some of the sites that have 24/96 FLAC files?

George

http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-help-downloads-studio-master-quality-album-downloads.aspx
http://www.highdeftapetransfers.net/
http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html

[Gordy]

A couple more here, though hdtracks / Chesky may not be up yet...

http://www.itrax.com/
http://www.referencerecordings.com/HRx1.asp
http://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=staticpage&pagename=aboutus
http://www.2l.no/2L.htm

[ted_b]

HDtracks doesn't offer 24/96 FLAC yet, and Reference Recordings is not a download service (FLAC or otherwise).  I completely forgot about Mark's Itrax site, though.  Thanks.  Good stuff (from his AIX label).  I already listed the interesting 2L, but the more the merrier.         

[BobC]

So it sounds like the future may be 24/96, but right now my collection of CD's are all 16/44.

But I would get benefit from a 24/96 upsampling (not oversampling) DAC today with my redbook CD's and also be set for future 24/96 downloads (from a quick look I don't really care for the titles offered, i.e. not really into classical, etc)

 

[mgalusha]

There are also quite a few downloads available at archive.org that are 24/96. Since these are legal audience and soundboard recordings the quality can vary all over the place but some are very good, assuming of course you like that artist.

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=(format%3A(24Bit%20FLAC)%20OR%20(flac24)%20OR%20(24-bit)%20OR%2024bit)%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

[BobC]

Thanks for all the help guys.

Care to offer some suggestions of $1000 or less upsampling DAC's I should research?

[alexd]

Hello,
as far as I know, there is no source on the market that will play native 24bits/96Khz material, due to the Digital Copyright Law.
The only signal formats allowed to be output externally in digital form are: 16Bits/48Khz, 44.1Khz or lower sampling rates.
Therefore  External DACS never see 24Bits signal
There is a large number of the of the DACS on the market that will do oversampling/upsampling to 24 bits up to 384Khz, however oversampling/upsampling does not mean you will have better sound.
Hope my 2 cents help.
alexd

[alexd]

Most non oversampling DACS in fact are 16bits/44.1Khz only, there are some that will take any rate and convert it internally to 16 Bits/44.1Khz.
Our DAC will take any rate in. DAC18 will take any rate in.
Take a look at our web site: www.3d-audio.com
The only way you can get higher rate signal is from computer, your own files or not copyrighted FLACS. However that does rase some legal questions, and most likely,
sound card manufacturers will back of hi-res, hi-rate output.
alexd

[mgalusha]

Hello, as far as I know, there is no source on the market that will play native 24bits/96Khz material, due to the Digital Copyright Law.
The only signal formats allowed to be output externally in digital form are: 16Bits/48Khz, 44.1Khz or lower sampling rates.

That is incorrect. DVD Audio players could output 24/96 data provided the content provider allowed it. Some did not but some did, it was up to the folks who made the dics. One can also purchase 24/96 native files from HDTracks.com and 24/176 HRX from Reference Recordings. There are other vendors offering true, native 24/96 and higher music that is not DRM protected. Classic Records also used to offer 24/96 DVD's that used the native PCM and most DVD players will ouput this in it's native format. I own some of these are most are very good.

[alexd]

What DVD player are you using?
Most of the player/transport we've tried did not output 24/96 PCM even on non-protected CD's/DVD's (made by musicians for us.)
We have put true non oversampling DAC (24 Bits up to 192Khz) external DAC product on hold (DAC24) because we could not find the source (transport or player), even USB output from computer was limited to 16Bits/48Khz
I've been told by many DVD chip sets companies, they are disabling 24 Bits output regardles of copy protection bit.
Regards,
alexd
3 Dimension Audio
www.3d-audio.com