[jwes]

PLEASE HELP!

I'm quite enamored with Vinnie's work, and it's time to pull the trigger on new amplification, but I just don't know if the RWA amps are powerful enough.  Here's the deal:  The speakers are 2.5 way plus a double cone/ribbon tweeter, 4 ohm nominal (3.6 ohm minimum), 88db.  Speaking with the manufacturer, they said that to really get the best out of these, you need to have amplification in the 150W range (for bass drive, etc.).  One of their top dealers said a high quality 100W amp would do the trick, but to go over 100W.  Then he said that the speakers want current so a lower W, higher current amp might work.

So here we are with the 70.2's - 70W which is lower power, but at the same time in monoblock form, each dedicates itself to a speaker, and of course has the high current, which I think is what the speaker really wants.  I'm currently driving with a Naim amp at 50W (very conservatively rated), and that doesn't quite do the trick. 

Advice?  I really hope there's a way that Isabella with higher gain plus 70.2's would do it, as it is a different kind of amp design which might make up for the lower W rating. 

Thanks!!

[Vinnie R.]

Hi jwes,

Speaking with the manufacturer, they said that to really get the best out of these, you need to have amplification in the 150W range (for bass drive, etc.). 

Which speakers are you currently using?

If the manufacturer believes having power in the 150W range is recommended, I would trust their recommendation and search for a more powerful amplifier.

I really hope there's a way that Isabella with higher gain plus 70.2's would do it, as it is a different kind of amp design which might make up for the lower W rating. 

The one thing I can say with confidence is that the Isabella would be a great addtion to your system (even with non-RWA amps) - for the price it is very hard to beat!  Add in the Isabellina dac option and now you have your source and preamp off-the-grid, and a really good value! 
http://www.redwineaudio.com/Isabella.html

Are you in love with your speakers, or are you open to trying more efficient designs?
If you are open to trying other speakers, these are amazing with RWA electronics and now is a great time to save:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=61586.0

Feel free to email or call me if you have any questions.

Sincerely,

Vinnie

[jwes]

Thanks Vinnie,

Yes, I would love to get some higher eff. speakers, and have been interested in the Zu Def 2's.  However, I can't do it all at once - economy presents a bit of uncertainty.  You do have a 30 day trial period, so I want to try the 70.2's.  I just have a hunch they'll work.  And then of course going to higher efficiency speakers later they will be the best choice.  Will call this weekend or Monday...

[Mariusz]

I second Vinnie's  advice.
If your speakers are in fact uneasy load to modestly rated amplifiers, RWA 70.2 might not work (it doesn't mean that there is no chance in that.....it only means that you will be taking a chance with very expensive gear). 30days in home audition period is great but I would seriously concider Isabella/Isabellina combo and amp - which is recommended by your speaker's manufacture.

In my opinion it is the best solution to your problem.
As much as I like Vinnie's stuff some speakers just need more power then 30.2 or 70.2 can provide.
Isabella does wonders in lovering the floor noise , eliminating "grid" problems and it sounds great.
Pair it with Vinnie's Isabellina DAC (option for Isabella pre) and you have an awesome, little, very capable front end. Add transport or Mac and your are one lick away from tasting "heaven".

Best
Mariusz

[Vinnie R.]

Thanks Vinnie,

Yes, I would love to get some higher eff. speakers, and have been interested in the Zu Def 2's.  However, I can't do it all at once - economy presents a bit of uncertainty.  You do have a 30 day trial period, so I want to try the 70.2's.  I just have a hunch they'll work.  And then of course going to higher efficiency speakers later they will be the best choice.  Will call this weekend or Monday...

Hi jwes,

You do have a 30 day trial period, so I want to try the 70.2's.  I just have a hunch they'll work.

They WILL work and sound great, but up to a certain volume.  They have no trouble driving 88dB, 4-ohm speakers (and the dip to 3.6 ohm is not a problem), but you *might* need more power for louder levels with your current speakers.  It really depends on the following:

- how loud you like to play
- how far away from the speakers you listen
- your room acoustics (some rooms are more absorbant and require you to turn up the volume more)
- the kinds of music you listen to (some music is very demanding)


I know you'll love the sound of the Isaballa + 70.2s, and if they are "loud enough" to keep you happy until you later explore higher efficiency speakers, you'll find they will have more than enough power for higher efficiency speakers such as WLM, Omega, Zu, etc.  You might find even better synergy between the 70.2s and another pair of speakers that are higher efficiency (compared to your current speakers), so not only will you be able to play louder, you'll like the sound better at all levels.

However, if you plan to keep your current speakers for a long time and the 70.2s sound great but you find that you want more power (i.e., they just don't get loud enough for long term enjoyment with your current speakers), it would be best to return them within 30-days and take Mariusz's advice (and my advice, too  ) to use the Isabella/Isabellina combo into a more powerful amp. 

Yes, feel free to call me on Monday and we can chat about this in more detail...

Best regards,

Vinnie

[PLMONROE]

Thanks Vinnie,

Yes, I would love to get some higher eff. speakers, and have been interested in the Zu Def 2's.  However, I can't do it all at once - economy presents a bit of uncertainty.  You do have a 30 day trial period, so I want to try the 70.2's.  I just have a hunch they'll work.  And then of course going to higher efficiency speakers later they will be the best choice.  Will call this weekend or Monday...

Even at 88 db efficiency IF your speakers can be biamped, two sets of the 70.2 monoblacks should work just fine. What do you think Vinnie?

Paul

[Mariusz]

Even at 88 db efficiency IF your speakers can be biamped, two sets of the 70.2 monoblacks should work just fine. What do you think Vinnie?

Paul

as nutty as it may sounds - SURE!

Best

Mariusz


P.S
30 days period to prove me wrong is an awesome deal in my book.
Keep us posted about the outcome and your findings.

Good luck

[JLM]

I went against common advice and tried a 6 wpc Clari-T with 90 dB/w/m speakers in a 2,000 cu. ft. room.  I wanted to try the off-line thing, don't play loud, am not a head banger, and the price was right for the quality.  It worked, rather impressive really, but...

40 wpc was so much better.  Turned my polite dinner guest speakers into NFL linebackers in tuxedos by comparison.  And the additional control tightened imaging while improving detail. 

On one hand the numbers would tell you that going from 70 to 150 wpc is only a 3 dB (half again as loud) difference.  On the other hand having enough power to keep a commanding grip on the drivers is really a basic requirement for high end performance.

[cruz123]

If I recall the formula correctly, you need to double your power to gain 3db in volume.   Going from 50w to 70w isn't going to help you much if you're currently unhappy with the 50w amp.    I would suggest building around new speakers instead of a new amp at this point.   Buy a nice pair of efficient speakers, which will improve the performance your current 50w amp.   Then for your next upgrade get the RWA  amps.

[Vinnie R.]

All,

Sometimes it is best to just "try it!" 

On paper, a 50 watt amp is a 50 watt amp.  However, every manufacturer rates their amps a little differently.  Sometimes they are over-rated, sometimes under-rated.  Some power ratings are done into a dummy load resistor, but real speakers are not just resistors so different amp designs work better or worse with different speakers.

Once in a while I'll get an email from a customer saying "your 30 watt per channel amp offers cleaner bass and has more dynamics than my the 100 watt amp I was using previously - why?" 

Again, in an ideal world the power on power should be equal when comparing amps - but it is NOT.  There are just too many variables, so sometimes you just need to try it with your speakers, in your room, with your music, etc. to determine if it moves you or not...  paper specs can only tell you so much.

This is why it is important that we offer our customers with a 30-day trial.  You try it in your system and see if it delivers the goods!  If not, you simply return it and don't lose anything (except for the shipping, which is not that much of a loss  ).

Vinnie

[jwes]

Hey everyone,

Thanks so much for all the ideas.  I'm really in a quandry, which likely means just give it a shot and see what happens.  I don't play concert level.  The 30 day policy is wonderful!  Vinnie - this is not in the cards for now, but what about that question - since I have biamp posts (two sets per speaker), what if eventually there were 4 monoblocks.  Would that substantially change the power equation?  I know enough to not just assume that this equals 2x the power.  But maybe it does 

[Vinnie R.]

Hi jwes,

I don't play concert level.

I'm confident that you'll be fine with the pair of 70.2s! 

since I have biamp posts (two sets per speaker), what if eventually there were 4 monoblocks.  Would that substantially change the power equation?  I know enough to not just assume that this equals 2x the power.  But maybe it does 

It is kind of hard to say because it depends on how much power your bass driver needs vs. what your tweeter driver needs. 

You'll definitely have more power by doing this, and the best possible sound because every driver gets a dedicated battery power supply and amplifier channel. 

Best regards,

Vinnie