[terry j]

I was a bit reluctant to post in this section, mainly because a lot of my questions are of a general nature and I didn't want it to be tied down to 'one manufacturer'.

However, as (atm) one way I'm heading is the pace car, I've decided to stick it in here.

Quick background, have DIY speakers which run as active three way using the deqx. (another reason to post here I spose, as the deqx would be well known heh heh)

I was originally interested in going the computer as front end route, and was advised by someone who's opinion I trust to use the pace car into the deqx from my computer.

Anyway, just cause I thought if I was gonna do this I may as well do it properly, I went ahead and built the CMP from AA. If I was going to use a computer, i may as well use one fully optimized for stereo playback. As it happens, even though it's not fully setup yet it is a worthwhile improvement over my previous front end (which, to be honest, was not 'high end'..but I digress)

So at the moment I am using digital out from the soundcard into the deqx. The pace car as I understand it is a usb link.

For the dummies (read me) why would using the pace car (or equivalent) give any sonic benefits? At the end of the day, it is 'only' a link is it not? Obviously there is more to it than that, but why is it better?

For some strange reason, I'm pondering (diy mainly I spose, I'm pretty stingy when it comes to stereo) getting the digital out option on the deqx and using different dacs. But the question is would anything be gained from that? From what I can gather, the dac in the deqx is the same/similar to the dac in the benchmark, if that is true and the benchmark is a reasonably well regarded aftermarket dac, the there is not much to be gained is there. Further to that, from what I can gather Empirical in all the mods didn't go to the bother of changing the dacs (true??) which maybe again points to not much being wrong with the dacs already in the unit.

But, I have also come across I2S (NOT that I really understand it), maybe there are gains to be made if that were implemented? That however may require an extra mod on the deqx, which I don't think Steve does any more (mod the deqx I mean)

The asking for the pace car is not too outrageous, could quite easily and happily come to that, but I guess how far can I go here. If there are some suitable diy dacs available, which ones and would they better what is already there? different dacs for bass, mid treble?

Very happy indeed for Mr Nugent to respond, equally happy for any alternative viewpoints as well.



EDIT boy, aint this embarressing....teach me to have a few beers before posting won't it (nahhh)

earlier I mentioned the Pace car,,,why? dunno. what I meant to say was off ramp turbo 2 heh heh. So forget everything I wrote..well maybe not everything!

So looking at using the off ramp between the computer and the deqx, the questions on the ourboard dacs still apply, and would be great if I could understand why the off ramp (a 'mere' connector??) would make a difference.

sorry for the confusion.

[audioengr]

So at the moment I am using digital out from the soundcard into the deqx. The pace car as I understand it is a usb link.

No, the Pace-Car is a reclocker that can take input from Toslink, S/PDIF, I2S or AES/EBU.  Outputs are I2S, S/PDIF or AES/EBU.

For the dummies (read me) why would using the pace car (or equivalent) give any sonic benefits? At the end of the day, it is 'only' a link is it not? Obviously there is more to it than that, but why is it better?

The Pace-Car provides a "new" clock with which the data is output, a clock with ultra-low jitter.  In your case, it would replace the clock from the computer/soundcard.  The data stream goes into the Pace-Car using the computer clock, but comes out of the Pace-Car using the Pace-Car clock.

I already have customers with modded DEQX from me that are now using the Pace-Car as a front-end between their computer and the DEQX.  This requires that I tune the Pace-Car to the computer, which means that you must ship your laptop to me.  If it is a desktop, this is probably not practical.  I do Mac Minis though.

I'm pondering (diy mainly I spose, I'm pretty stingy when it comes to stereo) getting the digital out option on the deqx and using different dacs. But the question is would anything be gained from that?

Certainly, but it is a very expensive option, requiring three outboard stereo DAC's better than those in the DEQX and a multichannel preamp such as the Switchman.  Also, the DEQX digital output option adds some jitter, so it really needs some modding to minimize this.

But, I have also come across I2S (NOT that I really understand it), maybe there are gains to be made if that were implemented? That however may require an extra mod on the deqx, which I don't think Steve does any more (mod the deqx I mean)

I2S will give you the lowest jitter and therefore the best clarity.  I do not mod the DEQX anymore because I simply dont have time.  I am only modding the Northstar 192, the Benchmark DAC-1 and the JC-1 monoblocks at this point, and I will discontinue these once I have launched my Daytona DAC.

So looking at using the off ramp between the computer and the deqx, the questions on the ourboard dacs still apply, and would be great if I could understand why the off ramp (a 'mere' connector??) would make a difference.

The Off-Ramp Turbo 2 has very low jitter, but not quite as low as the Pace-Car.  The Off-Ramp converts USB to S/PDIF and has the advantage that it does not require tuning to your computer.  It allows you to use a 16-foot inexpensive USB cable to run from the computer to your rack.  The Off-Ramp then sits behind your DEQX and plugs into the S/PDIF digital coax input.  It supports up to 24/96 playback.  The jitter from the Off-Ramp will be lower than ANY PCI add-in card due to the Superclock4 inside, and it provides the advantage of galvanic isolation between the computer and the audio components, which means no ground-loops.  It is much more than a "connector".

Steve N.

[terry j]

thanks Steve, did a bit more homework on these various approaches (all that means is a re-read the stuff on your website a few times)  Does not mean I am not still pretty clueless however.

OK...think I got the differences between the off ramp and the pace car, my initial 'misposting' did not help.

Off ramp, a converter from usb to coax (or aes/ebu). Can I surmise that it is mostly used for computer front ends that otherwise have a less than satisfactory output into the pre? It may have other benefits like reduced jitter I guess, but would that be the main reason?

OK, so in my case using the cmP, I a) already have a reasonable soundcard (I presume, monkey read monkey build) and a dedicated computer optimized for stereo output. That s/card (if important) is the juli@ and has already a coax out which plugs straight into the deqx. If I'm right above, then this computer setup has a better output than a 'bog standard' laptop for example, lessening the 'need' for the off ramp? as well as being intrinsically a better front end for stereo than the 'bog standard' laptop or pc.

Again using my computer as an example, I have no figure on what the jitter of the unit actually is, but I assume it's as low as can reasonably be gotten from a computer front end. So, with the pace car (a re-clocker I now understand)...how would that fit in? Is there a chance of increasing/re-introducing jitter using a coax output (by the mechanism of the link itself) that the pace car would ameliorate? In other words, even if it did nothing intrinsically to 'reduce' of an already low (I hope) jitter source would it help lessen 'introduced' jitter (say) that the coax out from the soundcard may introduce?

If the above is completely off the mark, in what way would the pacecar help things?

I have yet to fully understand all the various 'options' available with these units, but if tuning the pace car to the computer, would it not be that all you would need is the soundcard rather than the whole computer? (or motherboard, or both)

I must admit I'm a bit confused why you would say that I need a multichannel preamp like the 'switchman' (which I've never heard of heh heh)...why would not the external dacs just sit between the deqx and the power amps, in much the same manner as the internal dacs of the deqx sit 'between' the  deqx and the amps? The thought of external dacs I will admit is just an idle one, it's not like I particularly consider the dacs of the deqx to be poor. (tho they could be, I don't know one way or the other) was just throwing it out to get an idea if it was worth it or not. BTW, if I was to do it, I was leaning (for no real reason other than it is diy and 'seems' to get good reviews) the audio note diy dacs. If however they are not really any better (and taking into account the other factors you mentioned) then it would really put the idea to bed. If however, there is something about them (or others that may be recommended) that is better than the internal dacs, even if the digital out board of the deqx re-introduces some jitter which should be modded to handle (which in reality I can't get done as you no longer mod the deqx...and I doubt there is a whole lot of others able to) would the net result be any better, or a waste of time. Just trying to get a clue whether to follow this line of thought any further, or forget it right now.

Also, I hope you realise that I said 'mere connector' in apostrophes as I knew there was more to it than that, I was not denigrating them.

[audioengr]

Off ramp, a converter from usb to coax (or aes/ebu). Can I surmise that it is mostly used for computer front ends that otherwise have a less than satisfactory output into the pre? It may have other benefits like reduced jitter I guess, but would that be the main reason?

The Off-Ramp primarily provides a low jitter galvanically isolated digital output for a DAC.

OK, so in my case using the cmP, I a) already have a reasonable soundcard (I presume, monkey read monkey build) and a dedicated computer optimized for stereo output. That s/card (if important) is the juli@ and has already a coax out which plugs straight into the deqx. If I'm right above, then this computer setup has a better output than a 'bog standard' laptop for example, lessening the 'need' for the off ramp? as well as being intrinsically a better front end for stereo than the 'bog standard' laptop or pc.

The Off-Ramp will have lower jitter than this.

Again using my computer as an example, I have no figure on what the jitter of the unit actually is, but I assume it's as low as can reasonably be gotten from a computer front end.

Not even close.  The Pace-Car will take the jitter much lower, and even the Off-Ramp will be a big improvement.

I have yet to fully understand all the various 'options' available with these units, but if tuning the pace car to the computer, would it not be that all you would need is the soundcard rather than the whole computer? (or motherboard, or both)

It's the clock on the motherboard and the software on the computer that sets the data stream rate, not the soundcard.

I must admit I'm a bit confused why you would say that I need a multichannel preamp like the 'switchman' (which I've never heard of heh heh)...why would not the external dacs just sit between the deqx and the power amps, in much the same manner as the internal dacs of the deqx sit 'between' the  deqx and the amps?

Yes, they would, but you still need a method of volume control.  If you are not using the internal DAC's and analog output stages in the DEQX, there is no analog volume control.  Digital volume control is still possible, but not optimum.

Steve N.

[terry j]

must learn to not type so much!

I have no problem accepting that the computer front end may not be as low in jitter as the add on devices, am happy enough that I've done everything I can to maximise the possible computer performance before I move on to something else. In any case, there is nothing more that can be done there, so the question is moot.

I should have been a bit more clear than I was, I was asking between the off ramp and pace car because (if I understand it correctly) given my set up it seems far less important to use the off ramp than it would be if I used a laptop.

In other words, the pace car would be the only option I need?

If so, then to do it all that would need to be shipped is the motherboard? (the software is a 'constant')

Ahh, of course, analog vol control. Duhh Still, that at least can be part of the upgrade path and be done at a later stage if indeed it went that way.

Can I ask a direct question on that matter? In your opinion, would there be much to be gained by using (say) the audio note diy dacs on the digital out option? (given that I could be able to add analog vol control later, given that the digital out board would add some jitter back). Would that be a case of two (three? four?) steps forward and only one step back (ie worthwhile), no gain (two steps forward and two steps back), or god forbid, one step forward and two steps back. If not the audio note dacs, which others? (diy, don't want the cost to spiral massively)

I in no way want to waste your time with a continual series of dumbass posts, so perhaps I should ask the question this way (thereby giving you full latitude to answer honestly)

given your understanding of my setup (and ask more questions if you need more data) what products of empirical audio would you recommend I use? (and if more than one, why and how do they complement each other). There, that should save you some time!!

[audioengr]

I should have been a bit more clear than I was, I was asking between the off ramp and pace car because (if I understand it correctly) given my set up it seems far less important to use the off ramp than it would be if I used a laptop.

In other words, the pace car would be the only option I need?

If you are using a Laptop and driving the Pace-Car from the laptop with S/PDIF coax or Toslink, then yes, the Pace-Car is all you need to drive a DAC. I can only tune the Pace-Car to laptops or Mac Mini.

Shipping a motherboard to me will not do.  I cannot be assembling computers here.

Can I ask a direct question on that matter? In your opinion, would there be much to be gained by using (say) the audio note diy dacs on the digital out option? (given that I could be able to add analog vol control later, given that the digital out board would add some jitter back). Would that be a case of two (three? four?) steps forward and only one step back (ie worthwhile), no gain (two steps forward and two steps back), or god forbid, one step forward and two steps back. If not the audio note dacs, which others?

If you heard a modded DEQX, you would go no further.  If you can buy one of these, go for it.  You could of course do Audionote DIY DAC's on the DEQX digital output.  If these were stock and the DEQX was stock, it would probably be an improvement in listenability, but a loss in detail.  A lot of trouble and expense though for not much gains IMO.  The AudioNote DAC4 with my mods is quite nice.  I can recommend this one, although I dont mod it anymore either.

If you must use the DEQX for your setup, then the best thing is to get it modded and use the on-board D/A's.  I may be able to help you, although I will not be modding it myself.  email me on this.

Steve N.