[lazydays]

Grado cartridges have a well earned reputation for poor tracking.  They're also not shielded and therefore tend to pick up RFI and EMI.  Those are real drawbacks in a phono cartridge.  Why not start out w/o those drawbacks?  I'm aware that many folks love them, I just don't understand the attraction.
What about the Clearaudio lineup?  Where's the sweet spot for performance VS price?

If a Grado cartridge is setup correctly it will track about anything. I've owned about eight or ten in the past without a wimper. The first one I bought was an F1+, and the last ones were all wood bodied ones. Hum? What hum? I've had them on everything from a JVC direct drive thru a Technics SL1200, and now a couple high end belt drives (both have very large stepping motors by the way) without the slightest hum. Check your cables and the phonostage before you blame Grado.
gary

[lazydays]

Right on, Derockster.

At only 45mh of inductance, cartridge resonance won't occur until well into the supersonic region (61K or some such with 150 ohms of impedance in your wiring leading to your phono preamp - 150 ohms is pretty typical for armtube, phono leads and an additional IC to your line preamp/receiver or integrated if you're using an intermediary dedicated phono stage). 

The AT440MLa has 490mh (the AT150MLX is less I think at 350mh) of inductance...even if you have it loaded right, it's resonance point is 18K or so.  You may not hear it, but this resonance will screw up what your pre-amp and amplifier is trying to achieve if not damped right and it is within the realm of theoretical hearing range 20hz-20Khz.

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

As well, lower inductance means the coil noise is lower - less details obscured. The treble on the Grado's is natural and the best I've heard, bar none. Instruments sound more like instruments than any other cartridge I own - no matter the cost.

5 mv is nice high'ish voltage - plenty of punch without undue noise from higher gain stages need apply.  45mh is embarassingly low inductance level for a MM/MI (no others even come close to it).

Larry, before you knock it - try it - as you have a fluid damped arm now...it's worth the shot at it for cheapo money.

You can thank me for being an unrelenting Grado whore after the 50 hour break-in period    I promise not to use the 'I told you so' bit 

John

right now I have a Denon D103 on my SME arm. Yes it's quiet. No it dosn't track as well as the Grado, but is still very good except in very deep bass. The Denon seems tobe a little more prone to feedback than the Grado. Is harder to mount on the SME arm, but was a breeze on a Japanese arm. Now before you ask why the Denon instead of the Grado let me tell you why. Awhile back I was having an issue with tracking, and just changed cartridges to take that out of the equation. The problem was still there. Turned out that I didn't have the arm setup quite right.
    I listen to acoustic jazz most of the time, and the wood bodied Grados are extremely good for upper mids and vocals. They are somewhat cable selective (I settled on a ZU Xaus). The Denon is a little darker, and the bass is not done as well as the Grado (this really shows in the acoustic upright bass). Keyboards are much better with a Grado with it's detail showing up time and time again. Years ago I went thru three or four AT's and learned you get what you pay for real fast. But as I write this I'm cartridge shopping again. Looks like I'm going with either a Benz or a Lyra Doran (actually two [one in mono]). If Grado built a mono cartridge they'd be in the hunt as well.
gary

[lazydays]

So Clearaudio's are really AT's in disguise.  Thanks for the info. 
I hope he doesn't mind me posting this, Woodsyi, who is a very generous man has offered to loan me his Ruby 3, so that I can hear how a really first rank LOMC compares.  It has been said on this forum that LOMC's below $1000 are compromised.  What if I fall in love with its sound? 
At any rate, I wanted to thank Rim publicly for this kind and generous act.

there was a post awhile back about this subject. They are made by the same folks (whoever it was that bought AT), but they are very dissimilar cartridges.
gary

[Derockster]

Hey Gary how did the Grado sound on your 1200??Derockster

[lazydays]

Hey Gary how did the Grado sound on your 1200??Derockster

Excellent! I would recommend it on any Japanese direct drive. Seemed like I used something like 1.5 grams on the arm, but if I were to have done over I'd have gone to about 1.8 grams. The F1's are a little dark compaired to what we have now, but have killer bass. One thing that's nice about a Gradp Prestige is that when you want to upgrade all you do is buy a better needle. The bodies are the same.
    Forgetting what I had to say about the Grados, and what folks that listened to mine had to say. My brother and brother inlaw both used Direct drive T.T.'s (SL1200 and the top of the line Onkyo). Upon listening to the Grado, they each switched over to Grados. So last year my brother inlaw asked me where to buy another Grado, and my brother's new table has one as well. If you set them up right you'll be happy. And while we are on the grado subject let me tell you that my brother inlaw is going with a wood bodied platnum.
    One thing about Jap direct drive tables you want to be carefull about is feed back. I recommend at least a sandbox under them. That's the price you pay for the stiff suspension system, but still isn't all that much to take care of. Lastly toss the dust cover!! Completely remove it!! The headshells leave a lot to be desired too. I used nothing but Osawas, and you could really hear a difference with them.
gary

[TheChairGuy]

Grado's do sound good on DD tables - 'tis true.  Their bass can sound a bit billowy, but always powerful, on 'slower' belt drive tables.

Gonna' try one I just bought from Wayner on my DUAL 1229 Idler (my first rim driver) to see if they work on those well.

John

[lazydays]

Grado's do sound good on DD tables - 'tis true.  Their bass can sound a bit billowy, but always powerful, on 'slower' belt drive tables.

Gonna' try one I just bought from Wayner on my DUAL 1229 Idler (my first rim driver) to see if they work on those well.

John

most of the bass problems are in feedback. Set that direct drive on a sandbox and look out. The Ginko Cloud is even better. Trust me!!
gary

[Derockster]

Thanks Gary for the info.For fear sounding repetetive GRADO's sound real real real.Just so you'll know my Grado Green replaced a Shure mv 15 type v(a rather expensive cartridge).I never looked back to it.Regards derockster

[TheChairGuy]

Thanks Gary for the info.For fear sounding repetetive GRADO's sound real real real.Just so you'll know my Grado Green replaced a Shure mv 15 type v(a rather expensive cartridge).I never looked back to it.Regards derockster

Never cared for my Shure V15 either   

Gary/lazydays - the Grado Green/shibata sounds great on both DD decks I have (both are well isolated from feedback)...it's the VPI belt driver where the bass sounds overwrought and billowy.

John

[lazydays]

Thanks Gary for the info.For fear sounding repetetive GRADO's sound real real real.Just so you'll know my Grado Green replaced a Shure mv 15 type v(a rather expensive cartridge).I never looked back to it.Regards derockster

Never cared for my Shure V15 either   

Gary/lazydays - the Grado Green/shibata sounds great on both DD decks I have (both are well isolated from feedback)...it's the VPI belt driver where the bass sounds overwrought and billowy.

John

John,
that sounds like feedback in a low key form (almost like jitter in a CD player). I'd be watching for a Ginko on Audiogon. They even make one for the VPI's footprint. My next move will be to completely isolate the motor from everything else in my system, and switching from monofilment fishing line to silk thread. The thread will have tobe much longer (maybe 6") , and plan on sitting the motor on a two inch slab of granit in a small sand box. Problem is that right now I'm running out of room on my table top, so I'll have to address that situation first.
    Lastly Black Diamond (or maybe somebody else) makes a graphite block for the motor as well as the feet to fit the VPI's. These will work on the Opera as well as the Final Tool. Think I saw them in the new Music Direct catalog.
gary

[Jampot]

Larry / Icrim,

Did you perhaps learn anything about Clearaudio cartridges anywhere else in the mean time?

I saw this

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1207377731

and re-read this thread but (as has been pointed out ) there isn't a lot in respect to your original enquiry...

Jim

[lcrim]

The thread by Mosin over on the Asylum re:how Clearaudio cartridges are rebadged and more expensive versions of other manufacturers cartridges put me off the line entirely.
I discovered that the ringing I was getting was cured by going back to the AntiCables I had previously been using for speaker cables.  The DIY WLM speaker cables made both my systems too bright and revealed the ringing.  Along the way I traded in my Benz Micro Glider L2 for a Ruby 3H and I'm presently awaiting some 5751's to bring the gain down a bit.  I also ordered some DNM Reson Precision speaker cables, to see if they are a better match w/ my EM7 amp and Omega compact hemp speakers. 

[TheChairGuy]

Mosin is a really knowledgeable vinylphile, Larry.  He also told me about certain $1000.00+ arms that were nothing but rebadged Jelco arms (that you can buy for $450.00).

Cartridges are #1 baloney category in audiophooldom, neck-and-neck with cables.  They both matter greatly, but there is so much myth surrounding them it's truly gross to hear it.

Tonearms slot themselves into #2 baloney category.

Good to get that ringing outta' your head.  Imagine how bad the ringing would be if you had a tweeter in your system? 

John

[marknoir]

Right on, Derockster.

At only 45mh of inductance, cartridge resonance won't occur until well into the supersonic region (61K or some such with 150 ohms of impedance in your wiring leading to your phono preamp - 150 ohms is pretty typical for armtube, phono leads and an additional IC to your line preamp/receiver or integrated if you're using an intermediary dedicated phono stage). 

The AT440MLa has 490mh (the AT150MLX is less I think at 350mh) of inductance...even if you have it loaded right, it's resonance point is 18K or so.  You may not hear it, but this resonance will screw up what your pre-amp and amplifier is trying to achieve if not damped right and it is within the realm of theoretical hearing range 20hz-20Khz.

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

As well, lower inductance means the coil noise is lower - less details obscured. The treble on the Grado's is natural and the best I've heard, bar none. Instruments sound more like instruments than any other cartridge I own - no matter the cost.

5 mv is nice high'ish voltage - plenty of punch without undue noise from higher gain stages need apply.  45mh is embarassingly low inductance level for a MM/MI (no others even come close to it).

Larry, before you knock it - try it - as you have a fluid damped arm now...it's worth the shot at it for cheapo money.

You can thank me for being an unrelenting Grado whore after the 50 hour break-in period    I promise not to use the 'I told you so' bit 

John

Nice post.

I tried AT440MLa recently, 'cause I needed a good tracker. Unlistenable (I have both MFA Lumi full function and Hagerman Trumpet). Tracked ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, but nasty up top.  Grados sound good on my rig, but don't track. So what does one do?

[boead]

Ringing? Usually if you are getting a ringing it may be cartridge loading.
I don't get any ringing effect with any of the MC's I have here. Interesting.
I would not buy a Grado for all the problems that have been mentioned everywhere.

How about the Ortofon M Series, AT 440, Denon 160?
Den

I’ve tried a nuymber of Grado and Ortofon’s and the Grados have a nice tone but the tracking is poor. The Ortofons track well and sound nice are full range but the only Ortofons I like are the X series high-output MC’s or standard MC’s.

The Audio-Technica  AT150MLX is maybe one of the best tracking carts I’ve used. Just amazing, especially for the price and it sounds great. Haven’t heard the AT440MLa but I’ve read that it just doesn’t’ sound all that good. 

Cheap carts are full of compromise and do no justice to any vinyl experience. Its what ruins analog and makes the digital experience seem leagues better. A decent Technics made table is a minimum.


BTW: I use a Grado Red on a Technics made Audio-Technica table and experience few of the common grips people have. Its VERY quiet and again, has a great rich tone.  I’m very happy with it; I also use it with a Bellari VP 129 phono pre which is surprisingly great for the price.

[TheChairGuy]

Nice post.

I tried AT440MLa recently, 'cause I needed a good tracker. Unlistenable (I have both MFA Lumi full function and Hagerman Trumpet). Tracked ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, but nasty up top.  Grados sound good on my rig, but don't track. So what does one do?

Mark,

Getting the Grado's to track better and lightly damping them are the keys to getting them just right. When you do there is precious little difference from the $40 (now $60) Black from the $800 Master.  The van Alstine Longhorn mod - both crossbar and judicious use of 1000cst silicone oil on the coils - both improves tracking and damps slightly.  Having a fluid damped arm is nirvana for Grado's.

1.6gram is the right tracking weight and the VTA needs to be slightly tail down.

Finally, if you can find an older Grado that offered shibata tips (they are out there!) and throw that on a Prestige series cartridge....you'll have a $1200 CartridgeMan on your hands.  It will never win over AT for tracking, but it will be good enough that it's other virtues (amazing naturlaness - no other cartridge I have ever owned is close) will shine thru.

But, it's such a fussy cartridge that many folks leave it for dead after 100 hours.  The AT's are plug in and go for many folks and the de facto choice.  Also, the big, rich bottom end (a moving iron trademark) is just too bloomy for many low-to-mid-priced belt drive decks that can't keep speed efficiently. It works best with DD or maybe idler drives

There is so much performance to coax from it it ain't funny 

If I keep the pressure up on my co-facilitator Larry Crim - one day he'll relent and try one.  THEN - he'll thank me 

John

[TONEPUB]

I have the statement, I like it a lot....  Nice and warm!

[TheChairGuy]

I have the statement, I like it a lot....  Nice and warm!

I'll bet it's more than that!  What do you have it loaded at?  It should be in the 1-2K ohms range....if it's higher it will sound a bit flaccid, lower than that (typical region for MC's) and the treble will sound truncated.

I understand Grado recommends 47K for all their cartridges, but they are doing a bit of disservice to themselves by not at least stating the ideal impedance loading for each of the Prestige (about 10000 ohms) and lower output Woodies (1-2K ohms depending on the model...the Statement actually having a bit higher inductance figures and should be loaded higher than the lower line Woodies)

John

[Derockster]

Hey John.I love my Grado Green fitted on an Sme series 3 tonearm with fluid damper.No tracking issues here just pure pleasure.Most musical cart I've ever owned.Still tracking at 2 grams and loving it.Regards Derockster

[AudioSoul]

I have a Virtuoso . The name plate fell off and the wood body cracked now it sounds like hell, damn it!