UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?

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mcullinan

Does it reclock the incoming music for jitter? Can I ask? Will I have a hitman after me? Hey whose that lurking in the shadows?
Oh man what did I do?

Mike aa

avahifi

Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #1 on: 10 Aug 2007, 05:56 pm »
Nope, you are not allowed to ask.   :evil:

Regards,

Frank

avahifi

Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #2 on: 10 Aug 2007, 05:57 pm »
Just kidding, of course you can ask.  I am not smart enough to give you a correct answer though.

Frank

mcullinan

Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #3 on: 10 Aug 2007, 06:00 pm »
lol... you are plenty smart... right now I have a Lavry DA10 can you make any comparison with it?
Mike
Or a picture of the inside thats big enough to read the parts...
PLZ.. plz. plz
?
« Last Edit: 10 Aug 2007, 07:07 pm by mcullinan »

richidoo

Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #4 on: 10 Aug 2007, 09:07 pm »
From http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/dac/transcendence_dac.htm:

"A multibit oversampling design was used..."
"Our uniquely pure digital design..."
"...AVA technically optimized parallel processing digital-to-analog converter..."

Other threads people have asked what DAC chip is used, but I don't recall ever seeing the answer... ;) As Frank might say, it doesn't matter the circuit, it matters the result and the sound. To that end, I like this post: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=41574.msg370791#msg370791

Rich

mfsoa

Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #5 on: 10 Aug 2007, 09:27 pm »
I don't recall seeing the output voltage of the Ultra.

Standard 2V?

Thanks

-Mike

gjs_cds

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 327
Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #6 on: 11 Aug 2007, 01:59 am »
I feel a little compelled to chime in here.  The thread originated by someone asking a legitimate question about the product.  And since AVA doesn’t post specs, the question seems valid.  (Don’t get me wrong, posting specs about traditional analog HiFi may be a fruitless practice, as other manufacturers bend or outright break the measurement standards to make their products jump off the page.  As such, posting honest specs in a sea of lies may not be the best practice.)

But there’s a world of difference between analog and digital HiFi.  And developments in DAC over the past decade have been significant; the chips of yesteryear simply do not compare to the chips of today.  In a very real sense, DACs are partially subject to Moore’s Law (and other issues associated with rapid technological advancement).

So as far as DACs go, I (myself) would prefer to see specifications--as it increasingly becomes an issue of mathematics rather than audiophile tweaks.  (Or, at the very least, a list of the digital components used in the product in the “D” part of the DAC.)  Instead, we’re given nothing but meaningless rhetoric and our own blind faith.  ("A multibit oversampling design was used...” or “our uniquely pure digital design...”  What do these phrases actually mean?  Multibit simply means >1 bit.  Anything less than 8 bit oversampling will leave significant problems relative to harmonic distortion; so if “multibit” is less than “8 bit”--I am not impressed.  And anything that reads binary code, by default, is going to be digital.)  And other questions, such as HDCD compatibility, are left totally unanswered.

I guess my point is that, at least with chip-based digital technologies like DACs, specs and (chip) components mean something.  And while the 30 day AVA HiFi return policy is certainly very nice--the irrefutable laws of math and physics are such that honest numbers on a page can be very revealing toward describing the performance of a DAC, just as it would any other computer.

This isn’t written to be read as negative relative to AVA HiFi; it’s his company, and he can market his products as he chooses.  Rather, this is more of an indictment on the entire HiFi industry that seemingly ignores math, physics and science in lieu of meaningless soap-opera like drivel found on the pages of *insert pretty much any HiFi magazine here*.

/Rant

KS

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 152
Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #7 on: 11 Aug 2007, 03:06 am »
Here's the spec sheet and info for the Texas Instruments Burr-Brown PCM1793 24-Bit 192kHz Sampling Advanced Segment Audio Stereo DAC used in the DAC I'm using----

"The PCM1793 uses TI’s advanced segment DAC architecture to achieve excellent dynamic performance and improved tolerance to clock jitter. The PCM1793 provides balanced voltage outputs. Digital input data via the digital filter is separated into 6 upper bits and 18 lower bits. The 6 upper bits are converted to inverted complementary offset binary (ICOB) code. The lower 18 bits, associated with the MSB, are processed by a five-level third-order delta-sigma modulator operated at 64 fS by default. The 1 level of the modulator is equivalent to the 1 LSB of the ICOB code converter. The data groups processed in the ICOB converter and third-order delta-sigma modulator are summed together to an up-to-66-level digital code, and then processed by data-weighted averaging (DWA) to reduce the noise produced by element mismatch. The data of up to 66 levels from the DWA is converted to an analog output in the differential-current segment section.  This architecture has overcome the various drawbacks of conventional multibit processing and also achieves excellent dynamic performance."
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1793.pdf  page 21
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pcm1793.html

No, I don't understand 90% of what they're saying.  It does work very well.

dB Cooper

Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #8 on: 11 Aug 2007, 11:18 am »
I followed the link and note that the author gushed over the sound quality from Sirius satellite radio and HD ("hybrid digital", not "hi-def") radio, both of which are mid-fi at best.

AVA uses 16 bit 4x oversampling DAC chips; they have stated this numerous times in their literature. I don't understand the secrecy about the converter; unless they are scraping off component labeling (as some mfr's do), all someone would have to do is take the cover off to see what converter is used.

"Multilevel sigma-delta" DACS are among the types covered in this interesting article, which has been referred to here before. You want data, there is plenty of it, and scope traces too, but you may not like what you see.

The only "drawback of conventional multibit processing" is higher build cost for the manufacturer.

richidoo

Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #9 on: 11 Aug 2007, 02:11 pm »
I agree with BrianM. I would only add that Moore's law is not as relevant to DAC chips as to PC processors. DACs are not tied to personal productivity so there is no universal demand for constant performance increase. Development of DACs follows other market influences, namely reducing cost while maintaining adequate performance. Only high end equipment can hear the difference in DAC quality, and TI or Wolfson don't design products for us. They make more money on easier to build chips. Specs do not drive DAC development as much as profit. With PCs, specs = profit, so the race is always on.

Newer DAC chips are very good, but the original replacements for expensive R2R designs were developed for cost reduction, not performance increase. There are new DACs being made which still use vintage and 'obsolete' NOS DAC chips. They are considered by some to be state of the art. Of course, same can be said for products containing newer chips, but performance compared to the older chips is similar.

I believe that the chip is an important, but relatively smaller part of the DAC's design. Jitter reduction strategies, power supply, and analog stage design contribute to overall sound at least as much as the chip's architecture. Without these areas done right, differences between chip types are less audible. Many NOS designs are criticized for lack of zip, or rolled high end. This is not the chip's fault as a glance at their specsheet will show. AVA has a handle on power supply and output stage design. ;) I don't know about their approach to jitter reduction, but that is easy to hear during an audition.

Rich

richidoo

Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #10 on: 12 Aug 2007, 03:30 am »
It seems easiest to hear when you take it away. :) I remember seeing a demo clip of lots of jitter vs low jitter, to demonstrate the different sound. Maybe on lessloss website? I will keep my eyes open for it.

We tried the Altmann DAC here a couple months back, and it has a jitter filter on it. We couldn;t hear the difference with it engaged or defeated, using SB as source. Maybe with a $40 walmart DVD player it would be more audible.

avahifi

Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #11 on: 13 Aug 2007, 07:41 pm »
Actually, I will try to answer questions about our DAC designs by phone, its just too time consuming (and not as much fun) to deal with it via e-mail.

Frank Van Alstine

651-330-9871

richidoo

Re: UltraDAC: Am I allowed to ask is it oversampling, under?
« Reply #12 on: 13 Aug 2007, 07:48 pm »
Have you compared the Altmann DAC to anything else? Like, oh, say, the AVA?)

Nope, I wanted to compare them directly, but I was not in a position to actually keep the Ultra and didn't want to do a "Diana Ross." ;)  I'm looking forward to hearing it in my own system. I'm hope it will be at RMAF too.