[slow_down]

I'm thinking about buying a Squeezebox 3 and modding it through Bolder Cable.  However, their analog mod decreases the output level of the signal to a max output of 1.1 V rms down from the 2 Vrms of the stock unit.  Will that present any problems if I am using it plugged into an Etesian/Khartago setup?  Can someone explain the practical effect of that, and whether I should care?  Thanks!

FYI, info on the mod can be found here: http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/Detail?no=383

[slow_down]

Thanks.  Speakers are Nightingales.  Not sure how efficient they are considered to be. I ordered the budget system from Klaus and upgraded to the Nightingales when he told me he had a set of trade-ins available.  Won't have the system until the end of this month.

Wayne at Bolder also says ideally you'd connect an analog-modded SB3 directly to an amp, but I won't be able to do that because I have multiple sources to worry about and the Khartago only has one input.  Others at the Bolder circle here say that shouldn't be a big deal, but if any here have thoughts on it, would appreciate the input.

[TomS]

I've used the Analog mod Bolder direct into the my Odyssey Stratos SE's and though the SE's have fairly high gain and my speakers are relatively efficient it is not enough gain in my situation.  I have very successfully used the Burson which is set stock to 6db gain, with simple options to  bump it up to 12 or 18db per Wayne.  Unless you need switching, I'd do away with the preamp.  Tom

[slow_down]

I've used the Analog mod Bolder direct into the my Odyssey Stratos SE's and though the SE's have fairly high gain and my speakers are relatively efficient it is not enough gain in my situation.  I have very successfully used the Burson which is set stock to 6db gain, with simple options to  bump it up to 12 or 18db per Wayne.  Unless you need switching, I'd do away with the preamp.  Tom

OK, now I'm lost.  You're saying that plugged directly into your Stratos amps, you didn't have enough gain?  Did you ever try plugging the modded SB3 into a preamp?  There's no way I can afford the Burson on top of the SB3 anytime soon. 

Ideally I'd like to keep my total spend on a source to $900 or under.  What if I did the SB3 ($300) plus the digital only mod ($250) plus a budget DAC ($350 or preferably way less).  This way I could also use the DAC with my Oppo 981 DVD player so if a friend brings a cd over I have something decent to play it with. Are there any decent DAC's for $350 or under?  UGHH! Don't know what to do.

[Bigfish]

Why not purchase the S3 and try it unmodded.  You can use the RCAs to connect it to your preamp and use it for awhile.  Then you can decide if you would prefer to go the analog modding route or add a DAC into your system.  If you think you will want to use a CDP in the system in addition to the S3 you will probably need a DAC.  Buy the DAC and connect the S3 to it before you have it digitally modded.  The unit will perform better if is modded but unmodded you may be happy with it.

Ken

[denjo]

Marbles wrote:

Eventually you may want to sell the Etesian and get the Bolder/Bent/Burson control center.

Eastern Electric's BBA is another alternative you might want to explore, if you decide on the buffer route. The concept of being able to dial in the correct amount of gain with the Eastern Electric BBA sounds brilliant. On a similar issue, I find that my phono (MC, Rega 300 and Denon103R) has very low gain. Consequently, when listening to phono I have to crank my volume up WAY high in order to get satisfactory dynamics.

The other option is run your SB3 stock digital out only (a cheap DVD player like the Oppo would be great), using a high quality power supply (I am using a Paul Hynes shunt regulated with great success). You will be surprised by the improvements. This leaves the option open for a full digital mod if you wish to take the ultimate route.

[mgalusha]

Some more info if you decide to go the analog modded SB route...

The Stratos and Khartago have fairly high gain at 30.5dB but even with that you won't be able to get full power out of your amp with a max output of 1.1V. If you are the DIY type you could pick up a couple of Lundahl transformers (LL1544A) from K&K Audio for $68 each and these would give you enough voltage gain but of course there are trade offs. With the voltage gain of 2 it cuts the output current in 1/2, which is already pretty minimal on a modded SB. The other thing is using a step up transformer changes the impedance seen by the SB. For 2x of gain it causes the impedance "seen" by the SB to drop by a factor of 4. So the 10K Zin of the Khartago will appear as 2.5K to the SB. This is just at the limit of what the accepted 1:10 ratio of Zout:Zin as the modified SB Zout is about 230 ohms.

That said I know a guy using a pair of these between his modded SB and a Mac 275 amp with great results. The Cinemag transformers are a bit less (last I checked they were $48.55 each for a slightly different model) and are supposed to be very good. The Jensen transformers are very good but very expensive. For that much money you could order a Burson from OZ though and that doesn't sound like an option. Though the SB/Burson/Odyssey combo does sound very good.

I know the Etesian is a passive unit and I don't think it will be a very good fit with the modified SB and may not work very will using the transformers. It could be just fine but I don't know the Zin of the Etesian. If it's 10K or greater it will work.

Hope this helps a little.

mike

[Double Ugly]

Marbles wrote:

Eventually you may want to sell the Etesian and get the Bolder/Bent/Burson control center.

Eastern Electric's BBA is another alternative you might want to explore, if you decide on the buffer route. The concept of being able to dial in the correct amount of gain with the Eastern Electric BBA sounds brilliant.

I believe the Bolder/Bent/Burson will be a more complete component, but I've heard awfully good things about the BBA.  John Cook of Black Sand Cable fame absolutely loves it.

I hope to be able to compare the two someday soon.  The B/B/B fits my needs more completely, but the BBA sounds like a steal if it's as good as John says.

[slow_down]

Definitely sounds like the analog mod could create some potential problems.  And the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a DAC doing double duty for a SB3 and a cheap transport (my Oppo 981).

[TomS]

I've used the Analog mod Bolder direct into the my Odyssey Stratos SE's and though the SE's have fairly high gain and my speakers are relatively efficient it is not enough gain in my situation.  I have very successfully used the Burson which is set stock to 6db gain, with simple options to  bump it up to 12 or 18db per Wayne.  Unless you need switching, I'd do away with the preamp.  Tom

OK, now I'm lost.  You're saying that plugged directly into your Stratos amps, you didn't have enough gain?  Did you ever try plugging the modded SB3 into a preamp?  There's no way I can afford the Burson on top of the SB3 anytime soon. 

Ideally I'd like to keep my total spend on a source to $900 or under.  What if I did the SB3 ($300) plus the digital only mod ($250) plus a budget DAC ($350 or preferably way less).  This way I could also use the DAC with my Oppo 981 DVD player so if a friend brings a cd over I have something decent to play it with. Are there any decent DAC's for $350 or under?  UGHH! Don't know what to do.

I actually also have a Sonic Euphoria PLC that adds up to 10db gain and I also had a Joule Electra LA150 tube preamp for a long time.  I have used both extensively with the SB3 analog mod as well as straight into the Odyssey.  I also had a Wadia 861SE to use as a DAC.  In most cases I prefer the sound of the SB3 analog straight in rather than through a preamp or using another DAC (though I haven't tried many, as others have).  Please note I "personally" prefer more gain is I like to listen at a relatively loud level (but not cranking) compared to some others.  I have a dedicated room, so don't have to worry much about the household's complaints. 

My suggestion would be to try the unmodded SB3 straight in first to see how you like it.   Then add a linear power supply, such as one of Wayne's.  Once analog modded you will have about 6db less gain (half voltage).  Just try that again to see if it is enough in your situation.  For modest listening levels with the Odyssey that may be more than enough for you.  For me it's simply not in every situation, so I inserted the Burson.  I've found it does change the sound, though it's hard to put your finger on it.  In any case it retains all of the things I like about the SB3 straight in - lovely organic and dynamic sound.

Tom

[Wayne1]

FWIW,

I do not think your needs will be met using a passive pre-amp. I would suggest that you first think about getting one of Klaus' active pre-amps. You can then run a SB, either stock or analog modded, the Oppo and your cable box.

You have to decide now what is more important to you. Ultimate sound quality, or ease of use.

I have yet to hear ANY outboard DAC that sounds even close to an analog modded SB. I would suggest, if possible, to use the analog modded SB into a stock Burson Buffer and then into a switch box or pre-amp to use your other sources. This particular route will cost more money than you say you want to spend right now, but it does give you an upgrade path to follow, one component at a time, as you can afford it.

Bill of Morningside Audio sent around a few of the BBA for folks to listen to. I had one. So did Zybar. We both FAR preferred the stock Burson Buffer over the BBA. The BBA is over twice the price of the stock Burson Buffer and it does not come close to the dynamics or clarity of the Burson.

Do not think of an outboard DAC as a cure for everything. DACs all have their own problems. Along with a DAC you will have to get digital cables to connect your components. Each digital cable will change the signal slightly. This can be another sinkhole for lots of money.

Depending on what DAC you might be interested in, you might find that the power supply could be better/improved. You might chose one that has a tube output buffer section. Then you can throw a lot of money at different tubes to "flavor" the sound 

My suggestions, again, are to contact Klaus to see if you could change your pre-amp to an active one. Buy the SB and listen to it for awhile. Upgrade/change the power supply on the SB to a linear power supply. After a month or so, if you budget has recovered from the purchase of the system, go for the Full SB mods. That way, IF, some ultimate DAC comes along, you can use that with the SB. Listen to the modded SB in your system for another month. You can then decide if the volume is loud enough for you or if you need some more gain. THEN you can decide which direction you may want to go. Maybe you can audition a couple of DACs IN YOUR SYSTEM. Don't make your decision based on what someone else likes in their system.

I do have a stock Burson Buffer that I have sent around for auditions. When you get to that point in your quest, contact me and I might be able to send it to you.

Maybe you will have a big windfall of cash by then and you could go for the BOLDER/Bent/Buffer combo. BTW, I can change the gain in the Burson Buffer, so if there is not enough there for you on some recordings, it can be made louder.

Don't try to go for everything at once. SLOW_DOWN  a little and wait for your system to arrive and listen to it for a bit. You can then SLOWLY make your decisions based on YOUR system and YOUR needs in YOUR room.

Oh yeah, the biggest upgrade you can make to a music system is room treatments. Before you think about spending money for mods or upgraded cables, invest some bucks in treating you listening area. It will improve everything and all upgrades from then on will sound even better.

[Double Ugly]

In any case it retains all of the things I like about the SB3 straight in - lovely organic and dynamic sound.

I agree completely, but to clarify, I believe the "lovely organic" sound Tom mentions is from a a modified SB. 

slow_down, you can get an idea about how the SB3 operates and determine whether or not you appreciate the features and convenience enough to justify spending more on mods (most do, including me), but the real rewards can't be realized until Wayne @ Bolder Cable works his magic.  That, my friend, will take your listening experience to a whole 'nother level!

-Jim

[slow_down]

FWIW,

I do not think your needs will be met using a passive pre-amp. I would suggest that you first think about getting one of Klaus' active pre-amps. You can then run a SB, either stock or analog modded, the Oppo and your cable box.

You have to decide now what is more important to you. Ultimate sound quality, or ease of use.

I have yet to hear ANY outboard DAC that sounds even close to an analog modded SB. I would suggest, if possible, to use the analog modded SB into a stock Burson Buffer and then into a switch box or pre-amp to use your other sources. This particular route will cost more money than you say you want to spend right now, but it does give you an upgrade path to follow, one component at a time, as you can afford it.

Bill of Morningside Audio sent around a few of the BBA for folks to listen to. I had one. So did Zybar. We both FAR preferred the stock Burson Buffer over the BBA. The BBA is over twice the price of the stock Burson Buffer and it does not come close to the dynamics or clarity of the Burson.

Do not think of an outboard DAC as a cure for everything. DACs all have their own problems. Along with a DAC you will have to get digital cables to connect your components. Each digital cable will change the signal slightly. This can be another sinkhole for lots of money.

Depending on what DAC you might be interested in, you might find that the power supply could be better/improved. You might chose one that has a tube output buffer section. Then you can throw a lot of money at different tubes to "flavor" the sound 

My suggestions, again, are to contact Klaus to see if you could change your pre-amp to an active one. Buy the SB and listen to it for awhile. Upgrade/change the power supply on the SB to a linear power supply. After a month or so, if you budget has recovered from the purchase of the system, go for the Full SB mods. That way, IF, some ultimate DAC comes along, you can use that with the SB. Listen to the modded SB in your system for another month. You can then decide if the volume is loud enough for you or if you need some more gain. THEN you can decide which direction you may want to go. Maybe you can audition a couple of DACs IN YOUR SYSTEM. Don't make your decision based on what someone else likes in their system.

I do have a stock Burson Buffer that I have sent around for auditions. When you get to that point in your quest, contact me and I might be able to send it to you.

Maybe you will have a big windfall of cash by then and you could go for the BOLDER/Bent/Buffer combo. BTW, I can change the gain in the Burson Buffer, so if there is not enough there for you on some recordings, it can be made louder.

Don't try to go for everything at once. SLOW_DOWN  a little and wait for your system to arrive and listen to it for a bit. You can then SLOWLY make your decisions based on YOUR system and YOUR needs in YOUR room.

Oh yeah, the biggest upgrade you can make to a music system is room treatments. Before you think about spending money for mods or upgraded cables, invest some bucks in treating you listening area. It will improve everything and all upgrades from then on will sound even better.

Thanks for the candor.  It's not entirely what I wanted to hear but better to hear it now before I misspend my $$.  Unfortunately, upgrading my Etesian is, for the time being, a nonstarter.  I'm getting it as part of Odyssey's "budget" system and to upgrade to one of Klaus's higher end preamps would cost at least $600 more, before I get into a single dollar spent on source stuff.

So, I think for now I will take some of your advice and put my screen name into practice.  Stick with the stock SB3 for now and maybe add a modded elpac power supply.  See how that sounds to my still non-audiophile ears and then revisit a month or two later.  Who knows, maybe I'll end up ditching all my other sources and

[TomS]

In any case it retains all of the things I like about the SB3 straight in - lovely organic and dynamic sound.

I agree completely, but to clarify, I believe the "lovely organic" sound Tom mentions is from a a modified SB. 

Yes, absolutely!  I meant analog out with the full Bolder analog treatment.  The great news is you can do it as your budget allows and Wayne is great to work with.  As others said, just take your time and enjoy it.  Tom