[Danberg]

Have been enjoying listening to music and playing with audio equipment for the last 35+ years.

I see more and more on audio circle regarding converting vinyl and Cd's to digital format and storing on a hard drive for playback.  My main consideration would be having all my music on one format, including the ease of song, artist, etc. location for playback.

In brousing through the square circle threads I find that I need a much more basic primer on what this digital format entails. 
Such as;

1. How will my present system need to be changed to accommodate this digital format?  (presently have separate components - Line Stage, Power Amp, Turntable, Phono Pre-Amp, CD Player, Pair of Speakers)

2. Explain, IPod, Squeezbox, or do I purchase a computer with hard drive and set it up along with my other audio equipment?  How do I connect it?  To my Line stage? Power amp? 

3. Is there an easy way to still listen to my turntable, CD player without disconnecting, re- connecting cables?

Please point me to sources that will explain such basics.  Also, I do not want to compromise on sonic qualities when transferring to the possible convenience of the digital format.  If sonic quality will be lost, I'm not sure if this is the route I will want to go.  I'd still like to learn more about the digital subject regarding audio.  What would help in getting me up to speed? 

[andy_c]

The subject of computer audio gets complicated because there are so many alternatives.  Unfortunately, I don't know of any site that has a good tutorial on computer audio that starts from ground zero.  Best to take it one step at a time like you're doing here I think.

1. How will my present system need to be changed to accommodate this digital format?  (presently have separate components - Line Stage, Power Amp, Turntable, Phono Pre-Amp, CD Player, Pair of Speakers)

If you have a preamp with a selector switch and a spare input (aux, tuner, etc.), then no change to your existing equipment will be necessary.  You'll take the analog output of the computer audio device and just hook two channels of RCA cable from the computer audio device to a spare input of your preamp - just like you would with a CD player or tuner.  Signal levels will be about the same as from a CD player.  Basically, think of a computer audio device as being equivalent to a CD player that, instead of getting its digital data from a CD, it gets the data from files on a hard drive "somewhere".  That "somewhere" could be a hard drive in the same box as the computer audio device (like the Olive products) or a hard drive on a computer either in the listening room or somewhere else in the house (like a Squeezebox).

2. Explain, IPod, Squeezbox, or do I purchase a computer with hard drive and set it up along with my other audio equipment?  How do I connect it?  To my Line stage? Power amp?

Let's forget about iPods for a moment - they are for portable use with headphones for the most part.  I don't think this is what you're looking for.

I think it would be better to break this problem into pieces.  Otherwise, explaining the entire gamut of possibilities could get too complicated.  How about reading the Stereophile review of the Squeezebox here http://stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/906slim/.  Then you're sure to have some specific questions and we can look at those.

3. Is there an easy way to still listen to my turntable, CD player without disconnecting, re- connecting cables?

Sure.  It's the same as if you were switching between CD, phono, tuner, etc.  It's just done with the selector switch on the preamp.

Edit:  I think this has the makings of a really useful thread.  I'm sure there's many others like yourself that recognize the potential for improved convenience without taking a hit in sound quality, but aren't sure where to begin.  If you're not a computer geek, there's going to be a lot of unfamiliar territory here.  It will take time to unravel all this when starting from the beginning.

[JEaton]

Connecting:

It's just another line source.

The computer/digital system would be used in one of two ways:  Either as a digital transport feeding a DAC, or as a source component treated much like a CD player.  You would simply connect it to your line stage.

So your present system wouldn't have to change at all.  Assuming you have an additional unused input to your line stage, you wouldn't have to eliminate either the analog equipment or the CD player

Approaches:

There are many, but I think I can summarize them into a few basic ideas.

-- A standalone system incorporating a defacto computer, disk storage, and DAC.  This is the approach taken by the Olive Musica (and other models) system.  Advanatages to this approch are in the simplicity.  Disadvantages are flexibility and (often) expandability.  This system would generally be located in your listening room, so requires no home network.


-- Computer based, with soundcard.  This is much like the first system, except that it's more of a DIY approach to the same thing.  Most folks going this route have put together home computers before, or are at least willing to learn a lot first.  More flexibility than something like the Olive - you can put as many hard drives in it as you like, use whatever sound card you please.  Also, you use the software that you like.

It can be a challenge to get a great sounding system, as a computer environment is electrically noisy.  Also a challenge, since the system will live in your listening room, is constructing an audibly quiet computer, since computers generate heat and require various fans for cooling different components.  It can be done, but can sometimes be expensive and requires some knowledge of where you can get away with slower, cooler running components.

The flexibility in software can also be a challenge.  You'll need to learn about the software used for ripping CDs (and vinyl) and you'll need to choose and learn to use some particular playback software.


--Computer based, with external DAC.  Exactly like the previous, but with an external DAC, usually fed via USB, but could also be S/PDIF.  This has the advantage of getting the DAC outside of the computer, with many potential sonic benefits.  This approach seems to be gaining a lot of ground lately as more audiophile USB DACs reach the market.  Although not an "all in one" system like the first mentioned, it can be a simple as a laptop computer and a USB DAC.


-- Networked computer feeding a remote device.  This is the approach used with the Squeezebox.  Software running on a server computer located anywhere in your house where there's a network connection feeds a device located in your listening room.

This eliminates the worries of noisy computers, fans and hard drives sitting in the listening room.  It also addresses the problems of using internal DACs in computers.  But it introduces some challenges with regards to networking and server management.  Ideally, you'd use a dedicated music server.  The network may be wireless, but a wired network (if you can run or already have the cabling in place) is more reliable.  Networking issues usually manifest themselves as 'dropouts' - brief silences, or in a worst-case, the inability for the audio device to communicate at all with the server.

Same software issues as with a computer based system, except that (in the case of the Squeezebox) you may be limited to just one software application for playback.

[joebob]

I agree with the above responses.  I can share my experiences with this type of project, the choices I made and why.  I went with a computer based solution because, in addition to the music, I also wanted the ability to surf the Internet and to play movies from the computer.  In hindsight, a squeezebox would have been an easier route for the music, but I am pleased with the results I'm getting.

I am using an old Dell laptop with a cracked screen for my music server.  I think laptops are a good choice because they are generally pretty quiet and many of them have TV out ports.  One note about the TV out port:  Mine looks like a standard S-video port but it's not.  I had to purchase an adapter to convert it to regular S-video.  One thing I can't stress enough, if using a computer based solution, is to have a clean system.  Having lots of memory-resident programs can cause a host of sound issues and other problems.  If you have a bunch of icons in your system tray, you may have trouble.   Initially, I had so many issues with the system, from wireless networking to crackles in the music, that I seriously questioned the whole approach I was taking.  I ended up reinstalling Windows XP and everyting starting working.

I'm using a Perreaux USB DAC to connect the computer.  The regular price for this DAC is a little high, but I found one on Audiogon for less than half price.  I also looked into DACs from Aqvox, wavelength and others.  I think these items are, generally, overpriced because there is not, yet, mainstream demand for them.  The Perreaux DAC is very clean sounding.  I honestly prefer the sound from my DVD player, Denon 1930Ci, but the difference is slight, and not enough to overcome the convenience of using a music server.

I'm in the process of ripping all of my CDs to Flac format.  I like the format because it's lossless and not tied to any particular provider, like Microsoft or apple.  I'm using the following programs for ripping and playing my music

EAC (Exact Audio Copy)  for ripping CDs using the flac encoder.  There is a good guide on hydrogenaudio.org for setting up EAC for flac, it's in the flac section

Foobar for playing files and for Internet radio
flac plugin for Foobar, the flac site has a guide for configuring Foobar to play flac files, flac.sourceforge.net
ASIO4ALL - this nifty utility bypasses the windows K-mixer, a nasty little feature in Windows that destroys sound quality.  This utility can be the difference between getting CD quality from your music server and something closer to low quality MP3s.

All of these programs are free and work very well, once configured properly.

For now, I'm using an RF keyboard to control everything.  I read something about a program that lets you control everyting from your PDA.  I'll look into that when I have some time.  Another note, I found that it is not necessary to hang the hard drive from the music server (laptop).  Originally, I had the USB drive with my music files connected to the laptop.  I tried connecting to the files wirelessly with the drive connected to my desktop computer in another room and I could tell no difference in sound quality.  I think this is a better solution.  The fewer heat and noise generating devices in the listening area, the better.

I hope my experiences with this project help you with yours.  If you want an easy, music only solution, it's hard to argue with the Squeezebox.  If you're a real audiophile you can look into the Transporter by the same company.  It's supposed to have fantastic sound, but it's pricey.  Ultimately, I think my solution will offer me the best combination of flexibility, sound quality and value.

Please post your experiences when you decide on a solution.

[pakman]

I see more and more on audio circle regarding converting vinyl and Cd's to digital format and storing on a hard drive for playback. 

[snip]

Also, I do not want to compromise on sonic qualities when transferring to the possible convenience of the digital format.  If sonic quality will be lost, I'm not sure if this is the route I will want to go. 

I am doing some research into going down this route as well, and something to bear in mind is that there is a world of difference between handling music that is already in digital format (CD/DAT/downloaded music files) and converting analogue sources like vinyl and reel-to-reel tape to digital format. Ripping CD's is basically about finding a comfortable way of organising data on a large hard disk, but converting analogue to digital takes a certain amount of care. There are some cheap boxes of electronics out there that will let you play a vinyl disk and capture the output through a computer's USB port (there are also a couple of turntables that have all the electronics built in so that they have a USB cable rather than phono cables), but I don't believe that these will produce results that would satisfy even the semi-serious hi-fi enthusiast. The dynamic range of vinyl is very wide, and my understanding is that it takes quite a lot of skill to convert it directly to CD format without compromising the sound.

Having said that, I think that it may be possible to convert vinyl to digital with good results using higher resolution analogue-digital converters like the M-Audio Audiophile http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/AudiophileUSB-main.html or the E-MU 4040 http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610&subcategory=611&product=15185 (this second device got a rave review on this forum for its DAC function: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=35613.0). These output digital audio at 24 bits/96 kHz, which should give a greater dynamic range than CD's 16 bits/44.1 kHz, and allow more room for manipulation or correction of the output audio. When my current busy period at work is over and I have some time to experiment, I'll probably give one of these a go. They both have DAC's so you can use them to play the same files back through your hi-fi.

Good luck,
P.

[avta]

I would agree with Andy_C. The Squeezebox would offer many choices for a reasonable cost. In addition to being able to receive wired or wireless signals from your computer it can also let you listen to hundreds of internet stations from around the world. It is easy to set up and use and I'm sure you will get plenty of help here if you want it.
Guy

[mcullinan]

I am an apple guy, since I am a designer etc etc... Keep your system as is. Do you own a computer? If not you could buy a reasonably priced one.. does not need to be uber powerful, most are anyways right off the bat, unless you are doing intensive video or graphics.. Ok let me not veer. make sure you have a nice big fat hard drive, maybe a couple 500 gig drives.. plus wifi, preferably the latest incarnation of N, G will suffice. Need a CD/DVD drive to convert your music
Buy a Squeezebox 3, 4 might be coming out soon not sure.. This is what I use and large libraries of music are cataloged very well. Also buy a DAC that has jitter control or retimes the music feed. OK put the computer anywhere, make a computer room? This will be your server for music. Add Squeezebox to present system with digital out or optic to DAC to preamp and through your system. You can also connect your CD/DVD player digital out to DAC for better sound. You can skip the DAC if you feel the sound quality is good enough from the Squeezebox.

On the computer load Apples Itunes. I encode most of my music as apple lossless, you can do any format Flac Ogg Vorbis, Whatever you would like. You can set itunes to Automatically rip a CD to your HD in the format of your choice. There are other rippers for those who feel itunes doesnt do it for you. Once a few albums are in Itunes. Load the Squeezebox Server with songs from Itunes.
Set up wifi with encryption so no one tries to share your bandwidth. Follow Squeezebox instructions. Music zooms through molecules to your audio system. Yeah.
Mike