Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs

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hollow_man

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Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« on: 31 May 2007, 07:58 am »
Don't own an AVA DAC, but from images on the AVA site (see below), I noticed twisted pair wiring from the RCA jack to the PCB board (at input receiver, or pulse transf. or whatever immediately follows the green/black wire input wire):



This is a no-no. Replace with SHIELDED 75-ohm coax (the kind used for cable tv). Yes, this will improve SQ.

Wayner

Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #1 on: 31 May 2007, 11:36 am »
Twisted pairs are used all the time. It's a technique that helps shield conductors, used by many manufacturers. By the way, that's the digital in wires.

W

hollow_man

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Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #2 on: 31 May 2007, 03:12 pm »
Twisted pairs are used all the time. It's a technique that helps shield conductors, used by many manufacturers. By the way, that's the digital in wires.

Hard to tell from the web site image -- do AVA DACs use a pulse transformer (PT) on the input? Even if this were the case, the transport would also have to use a PT on the output for twisted pair (TP) to be efficacious. In other words, only use TP when the S/PDIF input uses isolated grounds (i.e. balanced). TP with single-ended connections (i.e. when transport ground is connected to DAC ground via the "negative" side of the RCA cable -- which is what most transport/DAC combos do) spews shortwaves. And this situation inside the DAC's metal chassis affects sensitive digital circuits. For balanced circuits, TP is probably better. This page shows correct use of both types: one balanced TP on the far left and regular SE RCA inputs and an output.

Quick fix for single-ended S/PDIF:

- Unbraid the TP.
- Wrap Al or Cu foil around each wire's insulator (the rubber/plastic part ONLY), and ground the foil to chassis.
-Further EMI/RF-improving tweaks may be realized by placing small strips of Cu or Al foil on top of ICs, and grounding it.
« Last Edit: 1 Jun 2007, 03:52 am by hollow_man »

grhellen

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Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #3 on: 31 May 2007, 08:25 pm »

This page shows corerct use of both types: one balanced TP on the far left and regular SE RCA inputs and an output.

Hopefully, Mr. Van Alstine can read Dutch.

Airheads4Ever

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Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #4 on: 31 May 2007, 09:31 pm »

This page shows corerct use of both types: one balanced TP on the far left and regular SE RCA inputs and an output.

Hopefully, Mr. Van Alstine can read Dutch.

Rough translation of photo caption:
Wiring of the digital inputs.  Extra added:  100ohm resistances of coax-isolation to digital-ground.

Somebody more tech-savy than I will have to translate the photo. =8^)

ctviggen

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Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #5 on: 31 May 2007, 09:48 pm »
I find it hard to believe that that tiny amount of twisted pair wire is going to throw off that much RF.  You could test this, and put a probe from an oscilloscope with FFT and see what you get.

bpape

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Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #6 on: 31 May 2007, 10:19 pm »
It's not RF, it's a matter of presenting a proper 75 ohm impedance so there are no reflections in the signal.  However, realistically, ANY RCA connector is not ever going to provide a proper 75 ohm impedance.  It needs to be BNC to do it the really right way. Some will argue but physics don't lie.

Bryan

Wayner

Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #7 on: 31 May 2007, 11:07 pm »
The BNC connector is an old style connector used usually for higher frequencies like video and I have seen them on test equipment like Oscilloscopes. I think the application of a BNC connector in a DAC, maybe a nice locking feature, but the added expense of such a connector and almost zero payback in regards to performance enhancement equates to "how about a nice RCA jack insted"?

Frank's DACs have won product of the year from Abso!ute Sound ya know. That must mean something. I'm sure plenty of thought has gone into the 3 inches of twisted wire. Worry not.

 8)

ooheadsoo

Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #8 on: 31 May 2007, 11:23 pm »
Isn't the problem that the spdif format calls for a 75ohm connection, which RCA is not?  There will be reflections given a short digital interconnect.  I have no idea if that's what JH is referring to, though.

Wayner

Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #9 on: 31 May 2007, 11:44 pm »
A turntable requires a 47,000 ohm impedance for it's MM RIAA circuit. Is an RCA jack then 47k ohms?

bpape

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Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #10 on: 1 Jun 2007, 02:36 am »
Not the point.  A phono connection is a relatively low frequency analog signal that is not susceptible to reflections due to incorrect impedance.  An SPDIF is a high frequency (not as high as video but the same inherent issues) connection where reflections due to incorrect impedance is absolutely an issue.  BNC is hardly an 'old style' connector - more of a pro connector where impedance is critical. 

A standard RCA is not and will never provide a 75 ohm non reflective conneciton - the geometry simply doesn't allow it.  Now, a Bullet connector has a much closer match so a decent RCA with a male bullet will be better - but not a true 75 ohm.

This has nothing to do with the twisted pair wiring - just more of a theoretical dicsussion.

Bryan

avahifi

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Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #11 on: 1 Jun 2007, 12:43 pm »
Discuss theory here about the input wiring (isolated from chassis ground by the way at the jack) all you want.  The DAC works just fine.

What is more fun is to run a full power square wave test CD into any DAC and watch the output signal hopelessly clipped and distorted big time on anything else we have ever tested except our DACs. 

Frank Van Alstine

martyo

Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #12 on: 1 Jun 2007, 01:10 pm »
Thanks Frank, we've been waiting for your input!

tomjtx

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Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #13 on: 5 Jun 2007, 06:49 pm »
There is a guy on the stereophole forum bashing AVA and a forum member there. This guy is posting under at least 6 different names in order to create the impression there are many  who don't like AVA.  Bashing the DAC and I think mentioning the twisted pair thing.

The OP of this thread sounds suspiciously like the guy on the stereophile forum.

Just FYI

bpape

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Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #14 on: 5 Jun 2007, 07:54 pm »
Just to be clear, I was not suggesting that the DAC didn't work well Frank.  It was more of an offshoot discussion.  My apologies if it came across that way.

Bryan
« Last Edit: 5 Jun 2007, 08:06 pm by bpape »

Wayner

Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #15 on: 6 Jun 2007, 12:51 am »
I've heard Frank's DAC's. It brings CD playback to........Happiness!

modular747

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Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #16 on: 6 Jun 2007, 02:04 am »
What is more fun is to run a full power square wave test CD into any DAC and watch the output signal hopelessly clipped and distorted big time on anything else we have ever tested except our DACs.

A while back you mentioned an experimental DAC design you are working on.  Do you have any updates on that?

avahifi

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Re: Twisted pair S/PDIF on AVA DACs
« Reply #17 on: 6 Jun 2007, 05:28 pm »
Nothing new on the research DAC, we might go forward with it some day, but not now.

Frank