[Marbles]

I have a battery powered turntable(Teresaudio.com), and a battery pre-amp (Doddaudio.biz).

There is a thread on battery power in a manufacturers circle that does not currently offer battery fed components and I thought it best if a thread was started elsewhere, so here it is 

Anyway, my thoughts are that in the pre-amp at least it simplifies the power supply, as it needs no transformer, resistors, etc..

I further think that it would be good for effecient amps like the digital kind, but I'm not sure how much sense it makes for high powered SS, hybrid or tube based amps, as the size and weight of the batteries might not make too much sense.

I also think that some of the main differences with amplifiers sounding better is a better power supply.  I know this to be true of at least one amplifier company with a circle on AC.

I DO think it is possible for a conventional power supply to sound as good as or better than a battery based one, but I think it takes lots of the highest quality parts to make this happen.

What are your thoughts on battery powered components?

[Daygloworange]

I was speaking to someone recently about it, it seems like a real elegant solution to getting good clean power, but it has to be implemented properly, with enough voltage and current being what makes a large factor in it's performance.

Considering all the hoops a designer has to jump through in order to get good clean, ripple free power, it almost doesn't make sense that more manufacturers are not using it, at least for low power things like pre-amps, and phono stages. Maybe factors like shipping, shelf life of uncharged units in storage, or liability issues make it a non viable mass market venture. 

I do wonder though. 

Cheers

[PaulFolbrecht]

My digital front-end is entirely SLA powered and there are some real boons there (RWA Olive and Ack! DAC).  Digital sources are the most sensitive to power abnormalities, I believe.

Preamps - I think a mixed bag because few tubes can be run well on the low voltages batteries require.  Many people love the sound octals (6SN7) - you can't power them on batteries, from what I understand (not unless you have a massive bank, of course).

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Marbles,

Thanks for starting this topic... should be an interesting discussion.

further think that it would be good for effecient amps like the digital kind, but I'm not sure how much sense it makes for high powered SS, hybrid or tube based amps, as the size and weight of the batteries might not make too much sense.

This is a good point.  Higher powered SS amps generally require higher voltage rails.  Therefore, more batteries are needed and this adds size/weight.  If the amplifier is Class A or AB, they are not nearly as efficient as the Class-D variety.  If you want a reasonalbe amount of play time between charges, you'll need batteries with a larger Ah rating... again, this adds size/weight.  As for tube amps (and even tubed preamps), they run on a high voltage rail (over 300Vdc is quite common) and therefore using pure battery power (ie, no DC to DC switching converters to step up low voltage DC from a battery to high voltage DC for tubes) requires many batteries... size, weight, complexity. 

it seems like a real elegant solution to getting good clean power, but it has to be implemented properly, with enough voltage and current being what makes a large factor in it's performance.

Daygloworange makes a very good point as well...implementation is everything, just like with conventional AC/DC power supplies.  There are many different types of batteries, each with their own unique characteristics.  I use SLA (Sealed Lead-Acid) in my products for a few reasons... they offer high output current, low ESR, low cost, and are easy to obtain online.  However, they do NOT like to be deeply discharged, as you can quickly shorten their life.  I added a brief and basic discussion of SLA battery power and "charging habits" on my website: http://www.redwineaudio.com/SLA.html.
At some point soon I hope to add more content.

Best regards,

Vinnie

[Vinnie R.]

Preamps - I think a mixed bag because few tubes can be run well on the low voltages batteries require.

Hi Paul,

I hear ya, but I do know of one guy who uses low voltage tubes on SLA battery power for his preamp... Ron Welborne's Ultrapath bp:
http://www.welbornelabs.com/ultraintro.htm

[Steve Eddy]

Preamps - I think a mixed bag because few tubes can be run well on the low voltages batteries require.

That depends on the battery of course. You can get carbon zinc batteries from Eveready up to 510 volts. Though they cost an arm and a leg and can't be recharged, but... 

se

[miklorsmith]

http://6moons.com/industryfeatures/livingvoice/definitive.html

Check out this UK distributor of ultra-audio gear that runs his rigs off batteries.  To be fair, he's powering AC stuff, so it's not exactly the same.

I've been using Vinnie's stuff for quite a while.  I've had his Monica-2, two Clari-T's, two squeezeboxes, a Teac amp, and now Signature 70s.  I've also had a battery-powered Ack! 2.0 and Altmann Attraction through these doors too.  Amps can be effectively powered with batteries as long as they're relatively efficient and smaller in power.  While AC supplies can be made clean, it's not cheap (think monster, high-quality toroids, avoided), and promotes all kinds of other audiophile suffering, i.e. power cords and conditioning.  Getting out of that mindset is liberating and can save piles of dough.

I don't know of any comparisons between AC/battery powered gear which is otherwise identical., aside from the Squeezebox.  I have heard from a few folks that the AC modded Squeezebox was preferred to the battery version.  Whatever the comparisons, the battery units sound superb and are (were) much cheaper; no $500 or $2,000 power cords to upgrade for absolute performance either.  Aside from these inconclusive reports, it is largely conjecture whether one power source is better.  I think it's safe to say one could find good and bad examples of gear with either power source.

In places with dirty power, a known, clean source makes tons of sense.

Consider the Signature 30 amplifier and now Signature 70s.  These are being hailed as true SET performers in a cool-running, SS package - world class sound.  How could this be at their cheap prices?  Simple - comparatively few dollars need be spent on assuring quality DC current.

Check out the Lessloss site.  I have one of their DACs coming used that should be here some time this decade.  Their solution is a hybrid circuit where the digital section is powered by AC and the output version by battery.  They claim this decision was purely on sonics and that the two power sources work better for their respective functions in the DAC.  I have definitely noticed a fantastic synergy with batteries and NOS DACs, though I haven't heard any AC NOS units to compare.

So, of course, there is no absolute truth.  I do know I'm glad the marketplace has provided me the opportunity to explore and form my own ideas and preferences, much like the fantastic options in high-efficiency speakers and tubed electronics currently available that weren't 5 years ago.  To me, good battery power is peace-of-mind.  Once connected I don't worry about dedicated power circuits, power cables, conditioners, or next year's upgraded models.

They're not for everyone.  They do require a little more care, as you have to turn them off for recharging after listening.  And, burn-in is a pain since you can't let it run 24/7.  But, once you acclimate it's not tough at all and for me it's a no-brainer.

[PaulFolbrecht]

I hear ya, but I do know of one guy who uses low voltage tubes on SLA battery power for his preamp... Ron Welborne's Ultrapath bp:
http://www.welbornelabs.com/ultraintro.htm

I was not aware of that.

[I have a pair of Welborne 45 SET monoblocks waiting to get built (tho I've been waiting nearly 4 months for the output trannies...  ).  The sound I heard in his room at RMAF, with $55K compression-driver horns with 45s on top and 300Bs on bottom, was the best I've, well, *ever* heard - at least on smaller scale stuff.  I wonder if he was running this pre there too.  I didn't think to check out the pre.]

[Gordy]

Maybe factors like shipping, shelf life of uncharged units in storage, or liability issues make it a non viable mass market venture. 

Cheers

Shelf life isn't a real problem if my experience holds true.  I used 3 or 4 year old batteries for my 48v battery banks and have been running them for well over a year now with no measureable sign of max voltage loss.  I'm running 4 UcD amps at about 150w each to drive my two 85dB speakers and I can drive them for about 18 hours before reaching 49v / time to recharge.  Of course, I don't normal run them much more than 6-8 hours max but, I can   

Before building these amps I did a lot of a/b'ing using 3886 chip amps and an on/off/on toggle switch to jog between transformers/rectifiers and batteries with both feeding the same capacitor banks.  I quickly became addicted to the smoothness and utter blackness behind the music that the battery supplies provided, then moved on to the much more efficient UcD amps. 

With a battery supplied P3a dac (RWA mod) and my tranny pre I could be off the mains completely if I'd just break down and let Vinnie mod my Olive    One of these days...

[Daygloworange]

Very cool guys. I'll be auditioning Vinnie's Sig 70's in a couple of weeks. I'm quite anxious to hear them. I love the concept of batteries. If they turn out to be a sound I like, I'll definitely switch over to them. Maybe then I'll hunt for a battery powered pre. I hear that the battery powered Dodd pre-amps are killer.

Cheers

[Marbles]

I hear that the battery powered Dodd pre-amps are killer.

Cheers

"Bart, I heard that you were hung!"*


You heard right!!!



* From Blazing Saddles

[Daygloworange]

Mel Brooks kills!   

Cheers

[JLM]

The biggest reason to go battery is if you experience A/C power abberations (my electrical engineering friends tell that this is the correct term to use for power with dirty/spikey/voltage swings/etc).  I've heard dirty power, but never where I've lived in older surburbia or new rural construction.

Clean power is most beneficial to digital and other very low voltage circuits.

IMO your amp/speaker combo needs to reach at least 105 dB just to provide an audiophile level of control, so even with the RWA Sig 70's (currently the highest available rated power amp) you're limited to speakers effficiencies of roughly 90 dB/w/m or higher.

So if you do have dirty power and qualifying speakers, battery power makes a great deal of sense.

The biggest hurdle for the audio community to accept battery power is the inconvenience.  Batteries must be faithfully recharged, routinely replaced, and should be properly disposed of.  As the reasons for going this route can be applied to all powered audio components, users can be saddled with various charging and replacement schedules as they use multiple units that use batteries.  And many battery powered audio products use internal batteries that force consumers to buy batteries via third party, pay for additional shipping, and be exposed to the various risks associated with shipping (I've suffered two incidents where internal batteries came loose, crushing the delicate internals, and costing me hundreds to have fixed).

It would be useful if battery powered units could be offered with option for use with an external battery bank (envisioning a single large battery) that could power the entire system.  The Altman Attraction DAC for instance provides for external battery connection which can then be easily sourced locally with less hassle, delay, and cost.  It would also be useful if the battery bank would have some sort of power level indicator to warn users when its time to recharge.

[Vinnie R.]

It would be useful if battery powered units could be offered with option for use with an external battery bank (envisioning a single large battery) that could power the entire system.  The Altman Attraction DAC for instance provides for external battery connection which can then be easily sourced locally with less hassle, delay, and cost.  It would also be useful if the battery bank would have some sort of power level indicator to warn users when its time to recharge.

Hi JLM,

This is a nice concept.... For the RWA modded Olive music server, I offer an option to connect to a larger external battery (for example, an Optima Red Top...55Ah or larger) for > 24hour play time between charges.  This works great because the Olive only runs on 12V. 

However, the Signature 30/70s run on 24V (two 12V SLAs in series), so it gets a little more tricky.  When ON, the batteries are connected in series to make 24V.  When OFF, they are connected in parallel and charged with a 12V charger. 

It would be even more tricky in the case of Gordy's 48V battery banks.  Four large, external SLAs in the living room are going to score very poorly on the WAF 

So the just "one external battery to feed everything" approach really only works if all the components run on the same input voltage.  I actually have tried running a dac (monica 2, nixon dackit, etc) and amp (Clari-T) on the same larger, external battery.  It worked fine, but I preferred the sound when each component was fed from their own dedicated battery... isolated from each other.  The "Reali-T" amp was an example of a battery powered NOS dac and Clari-T, all in one enclosure, but I used a separate SLA for each component. 

And many battery powered audio products use internal batteries that force consumers to buy batteries via third party, pay for additional shipping

Well in the case of SLAs, they are fairly cheap and easy to find online.  For example, the Sig 30/70s use two 12V, 5Ah SLAs.  You can find them online for approx $10 for each battery.  They weight about 4lbs each, so the package shouldn't be more than 10 lbs... not all that expensive to ship.  The Olive uses a 12V, 10Ah battery.  You can find this for around $25, and it weighs about 8lbs.  AND... replacement is much cheaper than re-tubing in most cases. 

If you are really into the "off-the-grid" sound, you probably won't mind this too much (just like those who love tubes can live with the fact that they need to change tubes, live with the heat, etc.). 

Shelf life isn't a real problem if my experience holds true.

Hi Gordy,

Yes, as long as the batteries are sitting on the shelf in the fully charged state, they will be fine. 

While AC supplies can be made clean, it's not cheap (think monster, high-quality toroids, avoided), and promotes all kinds of other audiophile suffering, i.e. power cords and conditioning.  Getting out of that mindset is liberating and can save piles of dough.

Hi Miklorsmith,

You are right.... there are AC power conditioners, filters, cords, outlets, dedicated circuits from the breaker, etc that DO help.  However, components running off of this clean AC still need to convert this AC to DC *inside* of the component.  The implementation of the internal power supply is very important as well.  Running on battery power SKIPS this AC to DC conversion process all-together.

Consider the Signature 30 amplifier and now Signature 70s.  These are being hailed as true SET performers in a cool-running, SS package - world class sound.  How could this be at their cheap prices?  Simple - comparatively few dollars need be spent on assuring quality DC current.

Absolutely!  The price of the Sig 30/70s would be a lot higher to achieve a "close to equal" level peformance out of an AC power supply for these amps (and that is assuming clean power feeding them!).

They're not for everyone.  They do require a little more care, as you have to turn them off for recharging after listening.  And, burn-in is a pain since you can't let it run 24/7.  But, once you acclimate it's not tough at all and for me it's a no-brainer.

Damn right!  I'm glad that this thread is not turning into a bashing of AC power, or a bashing of battery power.  Each has its PROs/CONs and have been brought up in this discussion, and there are good points to be made from each camp.  As always, implementation is very important for both cases. 

-Vinnie