I made it into Bound for Sound! - Well, kinda!!!

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DonnieW

Re: I made it into Bound for Sound! - Well, kinda!!!
« Reply #20 on: 14 Dec 2006, 01:45 pm »
Quote
Donnie you are the best.  That was a great test and your determination in pulling apart the kettle to get the Furutech to fit had me on the floor.

DonnieW also goes by the alias, The Mississauga Mythbuster! 8)

Cheers

I LOVE that show!!   :lol:

Seriously... those that know me well know I love to bust audiophile myths - or at least give them a good go!

jqp

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Re: I made it into Bound for Sound! - Well, kinda!!!
« Reply #21 on: 14 Dec 2006, 05:39 pm »
My heater is a 1500w Proctor Silex, with the cord attached permanently to a base, which has prongs that connect to the portable water heater. It looks similar otherwise with the same kind of switch.


As DonnieW stated, can we draw any conclusions from this little experiment? Is it reproducible? What was the hypothesis we were testing? Why were we expecting one cable to deliver more [factor X]? Which begs the question what exactly is [factor X]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but less resistance would lead to higher watts, and less time to boil?

Daygloworange

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Re: I made it into Bound for Sound! - Well, kinda!!!
« Reply #22 on: 14 Dec 2006, 05:51 pm »
I think the whole premise would be that IEC cords could potentially be restricting the amount of current, therby potentially having an adverse effect on transient response in the low frequencies because of the amps need to quickly replenish.

There could be other factors as well. Hopefully someone with more knowledge could explain better.

Cheers

sts9fan

Re: I made it into Bound for Sound! - Well, kinda!!!
« Reply #23 on: 14 Dec 2006, 07:22 pm »
I would also like to repeat your experiment. In my lab we have one of these:
http://www.coleparmer.com/Catalog/product_index.asp?cls=44395&Request=category
which has a digital temp control plus I have a digital thermometer that is good +- 0.02C.
the water bath takes a 20amp IEC.  Unfortunately I don't have an audiophile cord to try...oh well.

Question: I work with a MALDI-TOF instrument that can detect a difference of 1.00 daltons using a electrical detector that is extremely sensitive to voltage.  Why does it not come with a fancy cord?

James Romeyn

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Re: I made it into Bound for Sound! - Well, kinda!!!
« Reply #24 on: 14 Dec 2006, 09:51 pm »
Those w/ a futurist eschatology (not me) such as Tim LaHaye could & might well say this AC line cord experiment is a sign that Armegeddon is around the corner. :lol:


Yorgi

Re: I made it into Bound for Sound! - Well, kinda!!!
« Reply #25 on: 14 Dec 2006, 09:55 pm »
...Question: I work with a MALDI-TOF instrument that can detect a difference of 1.00 daltons using a electrical detector that is extremely sensitive to voltage.  Why does it not come with a fancy cord?
Personally I think most high end power cables are over engineered.  I think anything priced over $200 is crazy.  I build my own for about $50 - $75 each.

I believe these are the 3 main arguments as to why we all need uber power cables.
1) They need to be thick like Dayglow mentioned to allow for extreme current surges that an amp can demand when reproducing bass. 
2) They need to be shielded to prevent EMF from getting too close to your equipment which could lead to audible noise. 
3) The connectors must be high quality in order to get a good mechanical connection, both at the wall and internally to the cable so current is not restricted.

The 4th reason, and probably the main reason why companies can charge $1K for a power cord, is that many people just like cool looking, exclusive toys that they can brag about to their friends.

Looking at the specs of some MALDI-TOFs I found on the net, most have lower current requirements than a high powered amp, with the heaters drawing about 10A and the lasers only about 1A.

jqp

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Re: I made it into Bound for Sound! - Well, kinda!!!
« Reply #26 on: 14 Dec 2006, 10:27 pm »
Thanks for the simple answers.

I have always found that getting the premises and basic arguments is like pulling teeth. No one (vendors, or those who have purchased products in question, or friends helping to test said products) ever seems to want to be pinned down in a forum.

I rapidly loose patience with these discussions since i won't spend more for powercords, cables and connectors than I do for my "reasonably priced" components.

I would say a good start to this Toronto circle 8)

Spirit

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Re: I made it into Bound for Sound! - Well, kinda!!!
« Reply #27 on: 15 Dec 2006, 02:32 am »
I have always found that getting the premises and basic arguments is like pulling teeth. No one (vendors, or those who have purchased products in question, or friends helping to test said products) ever seems to want to be pinned down in a forum.

Allow me to enter the fray.
JQP: You comment that it no one involved in the Cable/chord industry wants to be pinned down in a forum.
Well, I took your comment seriously and decided to do my own research. 
I have recently began speaking to a one-man company in Montreal who designs and manufaturers a line of cables.
The company is called BIS Audio and is owned by a wonderful gentleman in Montreal named Bernard Brien.  Bernard runs his company with help from his wife, and is as passionate an individual as I have encountered in this audio industry.  BIS Audio makes a full line of Audio (ICs, Speaker, Power cords) and video cables.
I have absolutely no association with BIS Audio whatsoever.  I have tried his Power cords in my system and the difference in sound quality using his middle of the range cords ($500.00 Retail) was immediately noticeable in comparison with the stock cords that I received from Klaus from Odyssey.  And, BTW, Klaus would be the first person to tell you that replacing his supplied cords with his own Groneburg cords is an absolute upgrade.
For your info, please pickup the latest copy of UHF Magazine and read the "Power Cord" review of 6 popular cords.
BIS Audio's Maestro cable ($1200.00) was the hands-down winner.
This evening I took the liberty of calling Bernard and asked him if we would be willing to answer a few questions about Power Cords and also if I had his permission to paraphrase his answers here on the TAAS Circle.  He immediately agreed.
So what follows is a brief synopsis of our discussion.
Bernard divided the Audio Power Cord industry into areas: Business and Technology.
Business:
1: When a PC is sold at retail it has already gone through 4-5 hands before it has reached the consumer.
Manufacturers of the wire and connectors, The PC company itself, the wholesaler, the salesman for the wholeslaer, the salesman at the store, and finally the store itself.  Everybody needs there percentages in order to make a living.
In our society, profit has become a dirty word, and for some reason, more so with PCs. It is as if making a profit on PCs has become a sin.
2: People are so passionate about their audio hobby that they feel that because it is "love" then it should be free or almost free.  If you love your wife or girlfirend that love comes for free.  If you have to pay for love, well that conotates something sleazy.  Kind of like paying for PCs!
3: There is a segment of Audio hobbyists who feel that unless they are paying big bucks for a chord then it cannot be good.  In otherwords, the envy factor.  A Rolex and a Timex both tell time but there are those who will gladly slap down $100,000 for a Rolex.  Similarly, there are those who will pay major dollars for a Siltech or Nordost cable but will find it hard to pay $200.00 for a hand-made BIS Audio PC because it doesn't have the WOW factor.
And because there are those who are willing to pay such vasts amount of money, this is where the sleaze factor comes into the industry.  Obviously, there are companies who know that the buck is more important than the sound.
If someone is willing to pay; they are there with the expensive product.
4: Bernard explains that when he is buying supplies from the wire manufaturers there are varying degrees of prices for spools of wire.  For example, he can buy a spool of copper for $50.00/spool.  When he buys a spool of highgrade oxygen-free copper/silver plated a spool can cost $1600.00 and the manufacturers force him to buy at least one entire spool even though it may take him a very long time to sell the wire contained on the spool.  So, his investments in materials is substantial.  His inventory sometimes extends into the heavy tens of thousands of dollars and bank interest charges have too be taken into account.
Engineering:
1: Bernard explains that most people would not believe how many layers upon layers of stranded wire have to be strung by his own hands in order to make one cable.  Each one of his cables is painstakingly assembled bit by bit by himself. 
2: His cables have multi-level grounding which sucks out the RF in a very special way, which of course he has discovered during his years of research.
3: His cables have been formulated in such a way so that the impedence of an amplfier is minimized thus allowing for a smoother and clearer electrical signal to pass through.

I asked Bernard directly what difference his $350 cable is to his $1200.00 Maestro. 
Firstly, the $350.00 cable uses copper/silver wires with Marinco connectors, whie the Maestro uses a much higher grade and thus much more expensive wire and are trermintated with Wattgate Audio Grade connectors.  In addition, a Maestro cable from start to finish takes him a full day in man hours to assemble. 
He expresses that there is an unquestionable differnece in sound between the various models.  He will not manufacture a new cable unless there is an absolute sound differnece from the model below.  That is why he will not have a stable of 35 differnent models to sell.  If he doesn't hear it, he won't develop it as a product.
As Bernard tells me, everything is relative.  His $1200.00 Maestro cord, although not cheap to buy, would cost several times more if it would be sold with a "Rolex" comparable name in the industry.  And, those cables that sell for those large dollars will not compete sonically with his lineup.
The reviewer at UHF concluded her review of the Maestro as follows:
"With this cable, I can finally realize what I'm missing with a ll the others"
As for me, I was as skeptical as everyone else until I tried BIS's cables on my own amps.  Bernard absolutely respects anyone opinions, as long as they have had a chance to really try, compare, and listen. 
I would like to thank Bernard for his time this evening and encourage everyone to at least try a PC and see what difference it can make in your system.

jqp

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Re: I made it into Bound for Sound! - Well, kinda!!!
« Reply #28 on: 15 Dec 2006, 02:42 am »
Yeah, also keep in mind my monoblocks cost me $250 each, and they sound damn good.

Yorgi

Re: I made it into Bound for Sound! - Well, kinda!!!
« Reply #29 on: 15 Dec 2006, 06:26 am »
Well it was nice for Bernard to share his views so frankly, which is something you do not see every day.  I agree with a lot of what he is saying.

A few things I still have a problem with when it comes to power cords.  Yes, everyone should make a profit and I do not mind paying mega $ for something that is valuable, but please explain how a $1,200 power cord, regardless of how many hands it has passed though, can possibly be "worth" the asking price. 

OK it's hand-made, low-volume and exclusive but it is constructed of off-the-shelf parts and the design/engineering/assembly is not exactly complex.  Some comparable $1,200 electronics: Totem Rain Maker speakers – low-volume premium brand and hand-made by a skilled worker.  Arcam CD player – complex and very expensive to design, relatively low volume plus it’s a "premium" brand.  Canon 30D DSLR – extremely complex and best of breed, basically the Rolex of consumer DSLRs. (excluding pro gear)  And by the way, a $5K Rolex takes 1 year to assemble and typically 5 years to design.

I guess it’s really the “what consumers are willing to pay” effect more than anything. 

Interconnect are a different story.  The design can get a lot more complex and companies like Cardas, Van Den Hul etc…produce proprietary cable which I am sure involves high costs to manufacture.