[Bob Reynolds]

Is there any relationship between these two quantities?

Specifically, if the dynamic range of a source component is X, does the SNR of components following the source need to be greater than X for the source signal to pass through them without degradation?

[Daygloworange]

I'm no expert, but I've understood it as the dynamic range in this context would be the range before clipping would occur. SNR refers to the gap between self noise and maximum input and/or output.

Cheers

[bpape]

Dynamic range in another context also refers to the maximum clean output of a system in relation to the ambient noise level of the room.  So, even if you have equipment with say 100db signal to noise, and the system is capable of say 100db max, if the ambient level in your room is 45db, the best you'll get is 55db dynamic range.

This is why one designs a room for isolation.  Most people think of keeping sound from escaping into other parts of the house - which is a valid concern - but not one that impacts performance.  Sound getting IN to the room from outside absolutely impacts performance and the level one must play the system at in order to hear all the details.

Bryan

[Daygloworange]

Dynamic range in another context also refers to the maximum clean output of a system in relation to the ambient noise level of the room.  So, even if you have equipment with say 100db signal to noise, and the system is capable of say 100db max, if the ambient level in your room is 45db, the best you'll get is 55db dynamic range.

Kinda like listening to music while you are driving your car with the heater on, and the window cranked open. Turn the heater off, and close the window, and you've dramatically improved the dynamic range.

Cheers

[Dan Banquer]

Yes S/N can help dynamic range but there comes to a point where the format/source itself is the real limit.
                d.b.

[Bob Reynolds]

Thanks to everyone that posted a reply. But, can anyone address my specific question?

Dan, I was thinking about it from the opposite direction. Can S/N of a preamp or amp place limits on the system if it it is less than the dynamic range of the source?

JA made a somewhat subtle reference to such a notion (at least that's how I interpreted his comment) in the measurement section of the recent Krell Evolution preamp and amp review.

+++++++++++

As a related question, what is the calculation of Redbook CD's dynamic range? I was doing this, based upon the number of possible voltage levels:

DR = 20 * log(2^16) = 20 * log(65536) = 20 * 4.8165 = 96.33dB

Is this correct?

So what happens if the S/N of the analog section of a CD player is not greater than 96.33dB?

[Bob Reynolds]

Found this on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal-to-noise_ratio

Signal-to-noise ratio is closely related to the concept of dynamic range, where dynamic range measures the ratio between noise and the greatest un-distorted signal on a channel. SNR measures the ratio between noise and an arbitrary signal on the channel, not necessarily the most powerful signal possible. Because of this, measuring signal-to-noise ratios requires the selection of a representative or reference signal. In audio engineering, this reference signal is usually a sine wave, sounding a tone, at a recognized and standardized nominal level or alignment level, such as 1 kHz at +4 dBu (1.228 VRMS).

Unfortunately, I'm not sure this answers my question.

[Dan Banquer]

"Dan, I was thinking about it from the opposite direction. Can S/N of a preamp or amp place limits on the system if it it is less than the dynamic range of the source?"

It certainly can, and I think you need to think on a system level here so hang on to your hat; there's a lot involved.
Instead of thinking of just individual units think on a system level. Now that I have you thinking on a system level understand that whatever noise is pumped out of the pre amp is amplified by the gain of the power amp. Now add the noise of the power amp. You can also add the noise of the source unit and factor in the attenuation of the volume control of the pre amp. Now that's just by the numbers and we are assuming that the grounding of the system is done correctly. So if you been reading some of my posts on this subject you might realize that this is not the case. So add to your equations more noise and the susceptibility to interference in the playback system due to poor grounding.
Are we having fun yet?
Now factor in the following: In order to appreciate just what can be recorded on a CD you will need the following; A quiet room, and speakers that have decent low level linearity as well as upper level linearity. (How many loudspeakers brag about linearity, and I'm not talking about just distortion either, I'm talking about power in to power out over frequency and at different power levels)
Now: with all that in mind, factor in that recording engineers will only use about 60 to 70 db of dynamic range because there are very few playback systems that can handle anything larger than that.

And one final thing: the very low levels in CD playback are generally not used because there aren't enough bits so if they are used the recording people will use a touch of compression otherwise the very low levels will sound rather distorted on quiet systems.

So let me ask you again, Are we having fun yet?
You weren't by chance looking for a simple answer were you?
                d.b.

[ctviggen]

As a related question, what is the calculation of Redbook CD's dynamic range? I was doing this, based upon the number of possible voltage levels:

DR = 20 * log(2^16) = 20 * log(65536) = 20 * 4.8165 = 96.33dB

Is this correct?

I think you're right.

[Imperial]

A quite funky matter this!

Causality:

- Dynamic range is voltage swing that is above the total sum of noise (viewed from one angle)
- Dynamic range is also dependant on the perceived soundclarity, dependant on which harmonic is dominant.

Thusly dynamic range also should include the voltageswing that is into the noisefloor!
One can in some instances hear a full 20-25db into the noise, depending on what that noise consists of.

Hence one can say it like this:

- A perceived tonal or volumeshift however small that can be detected well into the noisefloor of THE SYSTEM is a good measure of the dynamic range of your playback chain.

Reason:

- Extra dynamic range is utterly useless if you cant hear if stuff is happening down there just over the noisefloor...

Effect:

I'm going to commensurate a rather unusual demo for this:
Song: Global Deejays: "I get around" (Royal gigolos remix)

This is a dancetrack that has a whitish noise embedded in the sound. "Music and noise" ...
Dynamics in the noise...