Got to hear the Spectron Musician amp in my system today

Tyson · « **on:** 15 Jun 2003, 02:39 am »

Gary paid me a visit and brought his amp over. Mainly to hear how it sounded on my system compared to the AVA FetValve 550ex. So, we listened to the RM40's hooked up to all of my gear, w/the Siemen's tubes in the preamp and the amp. My listening preferences are for a more laid back sound than Gary, so I adjusted the pots on the 40's up a bit for the mid's and highs. After doing some pretty focused listening, we switched in the Spectron. It had a more immediate, more detail oriented type sound, with better, stronger transient ability and bass than the 550ex. It was also very clean sounding, with only the slightest hint of grain to female vocals. Unfortunately, it was also fairly sibilant in my system, enough that I would have to change my cabling and probably my preamp to be able to live with it long term. But, I really liked the other things that it was doing (very well). The leading edges of notes and sounds were somewhat emphasized, but that lead to the very immediate sound that I was really digging.

On a lark, I thought of putting the Electroharmonix tubes back in to the fetvalve. It was a bad idea to take them out, the 550ex sounded a lot better w/the EH tubes, a lot of the snap and drive was back in the music. It still did not match the Spectron in these areas, IMO (the spectron is truly superlative in it's grip and control on the speakers), but it was quite a bit closer than at first. On the plus side for the 550ex, it was smoother, with a richer midrange, I found it more "listenable" over time. I don't think the 550ex really gave up much in transparency and detail, but the details were more in the background, they weren't pushed forward as much as the Spectron did.

In the end, I liked both amps quite a bit. The 550ex fits my personal tastes a bit more, with a smoother, slightly more laid back overall sound. But the Spectron is a great amp and it's just going to be a matter of taste which one a particular person would prefer. Maybe Gary will stop by and give his impressions of the 40's and our amp switching.

gme109 · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Jun 2003, 05:52 pm »

Quote from: Tyson

Gary paid me a visit and brought his amp over. Mainly to hear how it sounded on my system compared to the AVA FetValve 550ex. So, we listened to the RM40's hooked up to all of my gear, w/the Siemen's tubes in the preamp and the amp. My listening preferences are for a more laid back sound than Gary, so I adjusted the pots on the 40's up a bit for the mid's and highs. After doing some pretty focused listening, we switched in the Spectron. It had a more immediate, more detail oriented type sound, with bet ...

I have to say I was impressed with the RM 40's, I could easily live with this speaker. Definitely one of the best speakers I've heard. When I first came over and heard the RM 40's I though they were just a little too laid back for my tastes. After Tyson turned the mids and tweeters up a touch, I thought the tonal balance was just right. Even more so than where my system is at this point. I think that most seansoned audiophiles know that none of this stuff is just plug and play. It takes time to fine tune ones system to where we think its just right. Tyson had his system pretty much dialed in and sounding very good. On the other hand I'm still working on my new room and for the most part, my new speakers, the Excelarray's. So coming over Tyson's house and hearing his speakers, plus getting a chance to compare my amp to his, was a helpful experience. Although I thought the Spectron elevated the sound of the RM 40's in many ways, I was also able to pin point one of things about this amp that was making my system lean in the wrong direction. I think the Spectron is an amazing amp, but it does seem to emphasized the leading edge of the music a little too much. Giving a less than relaxed presentation of the music. I think combining the Spectron with a good tube preamp would be the ticket in my system. Now when I compared my XLO sig. ic to the Bolder cables Tyson had, I thought the XLO made things sound not only smoother but more transparent, detailed, better imaging and tighter bass. This was completely the opposite experience we had when we compared the Bolder stuff to the XLO when Tyson came over to my house. The one thing we didn't try when I was over Tyson's was the XLO with the Spectron.

Giving a comprehensive comparison of the RM 40's to the Excelarray's would be a difficult thing without, as Tyson mentioned in one of his earlier posts on the Excelarrary's, living with each speaker in ones own room and using ones own associated equipment. There are some comments that I feel can be made safely at this point. The RM 40's do play lower than the Excelarray's but do not have the impact in the upper bass lower midrange that the Excelarray's do. The kick drum and other percussive instruments have more weight and authority though the Excelarray's. No doubt because of the six 7" Seas Excel drivers per side. Both speakers are very coherent and transparent, among the best I've heard, but I would have to give a slight nudge to the Excelarray's in terms of coherence. I would say the Excelarray's are seemless where as with the RM 40's I was able to hear a little shift in the soundstage height depending on what instruments or frequencies were playing. The soundstage would expand in height when lower notes were being played, were as with mid and high frequencies the soundstage would be focused more in the center of the speaker. This was not a big deal and would probably be alleviated if Tyson was able to sit more than 7' away from the speaker, giving the drivers the distance they need to integrate. As far as the comments Tyson made about the Excelarray's being a speaker that is not laid back, lush, rounded or seductive, I would have to blame that more on the Spectron and my room than the speakers. I think these speakers are extremely neutral and tell you exactly what they are being feed. So I wouldn't feel safe at this point saying the Excelarray's are a more in your face speaker than the RM 40's. I think Brad V has a better idea as to how the Excelarray's change in sound depending on what associated equipment is hooked up to them.

All-in-all I'd have to say you would be lucky if you had either one on these speakers in your living room. They are amongst the best I've ever heard.

Gary M

Tyson · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 04:10 am »

Just wanted to do a follow up to Gary's post - if it didn't come through clear enough on my post, I think his Spectron is an awesome amp. It certainly does some things better than my FetValve (transients and bass being especially impressive). When I was in the sweet spot, I didn't use music that really tested transparency (I now wish I had), so I can't comment too much. The track we listened to that DID test transparency was used while I was sitting off to the side quite a bit, so I'll defer to Gary on this aspect. I did like the tonal balance and smoothness of the FetValve better, but of course that was w/the T7. Put a great tube pre in front of the Spectron (like the Erleuchtung I had previously), and I honestly don't think there would be much better sound to be had.

After hearing the Excelarrays, I have to agree w/Gary that the 40s are lacking a bit in the "kick drum" upper and mid visceral bass. It may be my tuning, because the 10 inch woofers cross over pretty high (166hz), and are 1st order, so they should still be very audible and impactful up to at least double that (332 hz). I'll have to play with tuning a bit more. But the Excelarrays were clearly better in this area, especially w/that Spectron amp, which is just plain amazing w/the bass speed and punch (but never overdone, it always integrates perfectly with the rest of the music).

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The soundstage would expand in height when lower notes were being played, were as with mid and high frequencies the soundstage would be focused more in the center of the speaker. This was not a big deal and would probably be alleviated if Tyson was able to sit more than 7' away from the speaker, giving the drivers the distance they need to integrate

I think you hit the nail exactly on the head with this one. Now you see why I envy those w/a dedicated room so much

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As far as the comments Tyson made about the Excelarray's being a speaker that is not laid back, lush, rounded or seductive, I would have to blame that more on the Spectron and my room than the speakers

After hearing the spectron in my system, I would definitely agree with you on this point. Plus the room probably has an even larger impact on the sound than the amp. I'm pretty stoked to hear your system after the room is treated. . .

John Casler · « **Reply #3 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 05:28 am »

Great Stuff.

Shows why this hobby is "so" personal, to tastes, system and set up.

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I think combining the Spectron with a good tube preamp would be the ticket in my system.

This is the type of result that takes one closer to the mark.

I have a feeling that I will eventually end up with a tube pre and SS amp.

(probably AMPzilla 2K and a good tube pre)

Like Tyson has discovered, VMPS thrive on tubes, somewhere in the chain. Apparently the Excelarray has similar charachter.

Quote

The soundstage would expand in height when lower notes were being played, were as with mid and high frequencies the soundstage would be focused more in the center of the speaker. This was not a big deal and would probably be alleviated if Tyson was able to sit more than 7' away from the speaker,

Gary, Tyson,

I sit about 7-8 feet away from my RM40s and have relatively consistant soundstage height.

Did both of you hear this "shift" and do either of you have any idea what might have been causing the perception?

And again, great stuff.

Tyson · « **Reply #4 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 04:42 pm »

The shift in size of images occured on bass instruments. It never really was that noticable to me because most bass I hear that sounds "bigger" is from bass drums or double basses or cello's, which are in fact physically bigger. But Gary had a CD of male vocals w/everything from Tenor's to Basses and when the bass voices came on, the voices sounded physically somewhat larger than the tenor voices.

I think if I could get about 10-12 feet away from the 40's it wouldn't be an issue, but I'm pretty much stuck at 7 feet.

Jon L · « **Reply #5 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 06:43 pm »

Just wondering which version of Musician was being used. I used to own a Spectron D1, and I must say the XLO signature IC would be a poor synergistic match with Spectron b/c both would emphasize top-end speed/transient detail and leanness in low-midrange/upper bass area.

Excelarrays and RM40 are two of the speakers I want to listen to the most. Too bad you guys aren't in So. Cal...

Brad V · « **Reply #6 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 07:14 pm »

Hi,

>>> Just wondering which version of Musician was being used.

Gary has the Musician II, which was recently upgraded with the newest boards.

Have a great day,

Brad

John Casler · « **Reply #7 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 08:35 pm »

Quote from: Jon L

Excelarrays and RM40 are two of the speakers I want to listen to the most. Too bad you guys aren't in So. Cal...

Hi John,

I can't help in the Excelarray department, but I'm in So. CA and I have the RM40s.

If you want to give a listen, contact me (I'm also a dealer)

audioengr · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 10:35 pm »

I've heard a Spectron amp - 500W/chnl with my equipment. Very good at bass control. I thought it was a bit clinical sounding, but good detail rendering. I have heard from people at HE2003, that one needs to try the AC cord with the hot and neutral switched - this evidently makes a big difference.

tyee · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 Jun 2003, 04:20 am »

Anyone heard the new Spectron Troubadour 125W/ch. amp. The smaller one!

tyee

KeithR · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 Jun 2003, 08:11 pm »

John,

BTW, i have those Burmester discs burned for you. Anytime you want to pick up!

Keith

John Casler · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Jun 2003, 10:58 pm »

Quote from: KeithR

John,

BTW, i have those Burmester discs burned for you. Anytime you want to pick up!

Keith

Hey Keith,

Thanks much

,

PM me your phone number and I'll call and see if I can catch you this weekend, or next week.

gme109 · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 05:23 am »

Quote from: audioengr

I have heard from people at HE2003, that one needs to try the AC cord with the hot and neutral switched - this evidently makes a big difference.

So would using a cheater plug and changing the orientation of the prongs do the trick?

gme109 · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 06:30 am »

Quote from: Tyson

After hearing the spectron in my system, I would definitely agree with you on this point. Plus the room probably has an even larger impact on the sound than the amp. I'm pretty stoked to hear your system after the room is treated... ...

Hi Tyson,

I now believe the room is the only culprit in the brightness we were hearing. I have installed an 8th Nerve room pack plus an addtional corner pack in my room. This has changed things significantly. I believe I still need some addtional room treatments though. I broke out some more wall hangings and even, don't laugh, some sleeping bags. Although the sleeping bags ended up taking too much high frequency energy away, it did tell me I need to address the walls behind my speakers. When I hung the sleeping bags up on the side walls behind the speakers were I was still getting some slap echo, just about everything took a GIANT leep forward. This has really been a very interesting experience. I have never worked on tweaking my room this much before. It all started when I went over to Tony's house last Sunday. Tony is someone that Brad introduced me to that wants to hear the Excelarray's. He is a member of the Tact forum and a retired Physics. I wish every audiophile could go over Tony's house and experience what a fully tweaked room can do to the sound of a system. Tony said it took him about 2 1/2 years to complete the job, if you saw his room you'd know what I mean. I have never heard a room with this level of treatment. Now here is the amazing thing. Tony had two sets of Quads,I believe they were the 989's, one in his fully tweaked room in the basement and the other set up stairs. You would not even believe it was the same speaker. And this was before he threw the switch on the Tact room correction. When the Tact was turned on the soundstage went back about 40'! At that point I knew just how important the room really is. I'm not saying to forget about power cords and interconnects, but the room is FAR more important than they are and should be addressed first. I just wonder how many times a pair of ic's or even an amp was blamed for what was really a room problem. Before I went over Tony's house I was thinking that his Tact amp with the Quads was going to sound a little bright or analytical. His system didn't sound like he was using tubes or solid state, it sounded like the real thing. I believe the main reason for this was, the level of room treatment and the Tact room correction preamp. The room was taken out of the equation completely. And the Tact was set-up to have a flat curve so everything sounded accuate, very accuate. I always knew the room was important but I never new just how much until last Sunday. Treating your room can totally transform your system.

Tyson · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Jun 2003, 07:49 pm »

Very Nice. I'm booked up this coming weekend (going to another local guy that has the RM40's hooked up to some Parasound JC-1's), but would love to come by and give it all a listen. I can bring some stuff over again. I did a bit of a tweak to the Mensa, and the sound is simply amazing now (much better than before). Let me know when you have a free day & we'll do it.

KevinW · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Jun 2003, 08:47 pm »

Quote from: tyee

Anyone heard the new Spectron Troubadour 125W/ch. amp. The smaller one!

tyee

I'm now a dealer for Spectron, and the word on the Troubador is that it is not yet ready to be released. So nobody has heard one yet. 2-3 months from now appears to be the earliest it could be released. They don't seem to be in a big hurry to release, which I think is nutz...

The Troubador is a full fledged integrated amp, with volume control and input switching. It has multiple analog and direct digital inputs, so you can hook up your digital source (e.g. CD player) without having to go through a DAC or preamp. However, with the analog inputs, you can still connect your tuner or turntable. Price is supposed to be about $3k.

I think this product concept is HOT, and I can't wait until it is released. There's nothing like it on the market. If anyone is interested in learning more about this amp, please PM me, and I'll keep you informed.

tyee · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 Jun 2003, 04:14 am »

Thanks for the info Kevin. I'll PM you to keep informed.

tyee

gme109 · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 03:01 am »

Quote from: Tyson

Very Nice. I'm booked up this coming weekend (going to another local guy that has the RM40's hooked up to some Parasound JC-1's), but would love to come by and give it all a listen. I can bring some stuff over again. I did a bit of a tweak to the Mensa, and the sound is simply amazing now (much better than before). Let me know when you have a free day & we'll do it.

Since the my last post I've installed some of the Owens Corning #703 3lb. acoustical panels for the remaining reflection points on the walls. This product can be purchased for $8.32 for a 2'x4' piece. I still think the 8 th Nerve stuff is worth the price and was preferable on the first reflection points on the walls. But I have a really bad room and needed a lot of room treatment. If I continued to treat the room with the 8th Nerve products to get things right it would have cost me a lot more. I'm still moving them around to fine tune the room. Based on Tony's recommendations I need to treat the front wall from floor to ceiling and wall to wall. After hearing his room I'll trust him on this one. He also came over and measured my speakers. The initial reading to the mic showed a pretty flat cure but when the reflection points in the room kick in there was a 10 db spike at 5k. Ouch! I have not measured again but I can tell I have the spike under control now. I was reading something on room acoustics and they said that the room contributes about 60% to the sound of a system, I'm a believer. The room should be the first thing any audiophile tweaks. If you don't then you can't properly evaluate other tweaks like ic's, power cords or even amps and pre-amps.

Gary M