[Brian Cheney]

I was demoing the RM40 OXO CDWG's today for BrunoB, staunch VMPS'er from Europe, and noticed a strange phenomenon.

For the first 3/4 hr of the demo, part of the midrange sounded detached, recessed, and somewhat gummy.  The effect then ceased abruptly.  I thought perhaps I was hearing an artifact of capacitor breakin on the new OXO crossovers I had installed just that morning.  And indeed, this may have had some influence on what I heard.

The culprit became apparent when the music ended and I heard how quiet my soundroom was.  For the first 3/4 hr of the session my lawn sprinklers had been operating, producing a low level of mostly mid frequency hiss.  When they stopped, the weird mids disappeared.

Moral of the story: don't listen critically when background noise levels are high.  I even unplug my refrigerator.

Anyone here with similar experience?

[Mudjock]

I am going through the process of learning speaker measurement techniques in my basement, and have had similar experiences.  The other day, I was getting really clean looking time domain responses, other than the usual boundary-related reflections - then suddenly everything was back to its usual noisy state.  I soon discovered that a small refrigerator had kicked on...  Even more exaggerated issues with the dehumidifier.  Now that I have measured these effects, I am wondering if they have something to do with my fluctuating opinions  during listening evaluations (one day, I think I'm done - the next, I'm pulling the whole crossover apart and starting over).

[AB]

Yes.

I am looking for an audiophile grade refrigerator as we speak. I am not kidding.

Having the stereo in (almost) the same room as that damned old refrigerator is driving me crazy.

I also turn of my servers when listening.

Other than these two annoyances I am pretty lucky to live in a very, very quiet place.

...except for the neighbor's obnoxiously loud cummins diesel 1 ton dually pickup monstrosity.

Where does he go at 11p.m. and then at 12 and then again at 6?

[Papajin]

I was demoing the RM40 OXO CDWG's today for BrunoB, staunch VMPS'er from Europe, and noticed a strange phenomenon.

I've noticed similar issues as well (in general, not with the RM40).  For instance you can hear the microwave (distantly) in my kitchen from my listening room, and when it's on it notably degrades the quality of the music.

[Zheeeem]

Yah.  Youbetcha!

The RM30s arrived before I had the chance to fix up my listening room.  The floor is hardwood over wood planks over 12 inch joists with 16 inch centers over the utility room - no ceiling and no insulation.  I get one sound when the furnace runs, another sound when the dehumidifier runs, another sound when the washer runs, and yet another when the dryer runs.  A heavy persian rug on the floor helps ever-so-slightly.  It is both distracting and changes the sound of my system.

On the plus side, I was able to get storm windows up before the speakers arrived.

Last weekend I stuffed insulation between all of the ceiling joists in the utility room.  It is a big improvement, except the part about my arms still itching.  This weekend I will insulate a few more places down there. 

Once I take my rugs off the wall (and put up acoustic foam), I'll put them down on the floor to further keep noise from coming up through the floor.

[jon_010101]

Ambient noise... uggg...

All winter long I battle the boiler from Hell.  Directly below my apartment is a ca. 1929 coal boiler converted to gas.  Needless to say, I keep a close eye on my CO monitor.  On the coldest month of winter, that boiler (plus the water heaters) can burn ~$8000 of natural gas (big building!).  The sound is like being on an airplane, or the starship enterprise ... noise from infrasonic up, at 60dB C-weighted .  When it comes on, I just turn off my CD and do something else for 45 minutes.  On a plus side, my floors are always delightfully warm

[dubravko]

I'm not sure if it changes a sound of my system, but all sounds that are apparently covered by music surely change my perception of music. That primarily goes for computer. If I need completely relaxing atmosphere for listening, I need to turn it down even while it is very silent by regular standards. Just couple of hours ago a power supply of my computer went down (2.5 year old Antec) and I had to buy new one asap. I was pretty much tempted to buy one that is completely passive (no fans at all, 0 dB).

From my experience with Zalman processor cooler which is practically totally silent at 1350 RPM, I decided to try one "super silent" PS, but still with fan. Since my computer is placed in a small custom made closet, noise is now almost at ambient level, which is practically total silence when there are no cars on the street. It seems to really adds new quality. I should have done it earlier. However there is still some very mild low frequency noise that comes from it, I guess from a hard disc.

[hmen]

My listening room is under the kitchen and when the refrigerator's compressor comes on vibrations in the ceiling cause all kinds of problems. A lot of the time you don't even know it's happening unless you stop the music. Does anyone make good refrigerator isolation cones?

[RGordonpf]

Does anyone make good refrigerator isolation cones?

If you want to isolate your refrigerator I would try Herbies Big Tenderfoot.  They can hold up to 200 lbs each, so 4 Tenderfoots can support 800 lbs. which should be enough for a refrigerator.  I have not used the Big Tenderfoots, but I have used his tube dampers, gasket material and small tenderfoots.  They all work very well for isolating vibration.

http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/footers.htm

[warnerwh]

Indeed any ambient noise I've found to be a distraction. My room being in the basement where the washer, dryer and furnace are is not the best. When I built my room I implemented some isolation so sound not only would go out but not get in.

The most important tweak for my listening down here has been to train Cheryl that laundry is to be put in the washer and dryer before we go to work so it's done in the evening. She's also trained to only fire up the dishwasher which is upstairs but near the top of the stairs while nobody is home!

The quietness of an acoustically treated room I believe to be part of the reason for what we attribute to good acoustics. Part of improvement we hear is the quietness.

[Hipper]

AB wrote '...except for the neighbor's obnoxiously loud cummins diesel 1 ton dually pickup monstrosity.

Where does he go at 11p.m. and then at 12 and then again at 6?'

He's going out because he can't stand the loud music coming from one of his neighbours. 

[John Casler]

As some of you know, I am not a fan of "noise" ambient or from the equipment chain.

To that end, I created a "listening chamber" which is an enclosure around my listening chair that blocks, absorbs, or filters "most" MR and HF reflections.

The front is open, and my front walls are damped as well as the equipment between the speakers has 6" acoustic wedges stacked in front of it.

This tends to provide a far more quiet listening space than most are used to.

It is so quiet that one immediately relaxes upon sitting in it.

This space and listening practice allows me to be quite sensitive to "room" or environmental noise when listening in other systems and rooms.

I think Bruno has a comparable set up called the "Listening Cocoon", and no doubt he too has developed a keen ability to perceive extraneous noise.

Although the "purity" of sound, when all else is reduced or subtracted, is a bit unusual for most, it certainly is a useful tool for understanding the accuracy of the electronic chain, with less coloration from the listening environment.

[warnerwh]

Your listening cocoon sounds very interesting. Even in my room which is very quiet this intrigues me as it appears at first thought to be a great idea.  What differences do you notice using your cocoon as opposed to sitting in the open? It seems like something like what I'm visualizing would be a great idea for folks who have the WAF to deal with. Also it seems you posted a pic of this before, if you still have it would you please repost it? Thanks

[Hipper]

Interesting discussion.

I wonder what the psycho-acoustic considerations might be to having a completely isolated room?

Of course we don't want the fridge, boiler or diesel engine interfering with our enjoyment of music, but perhaps a little outside noise occassionally is desirable?

Bearing in mind we are said to be striving to produce a live performance, where there is no end of interference, yet our brains can filter out most of these intrusions.

[John Casler]

Your listening cocoon sounds very interesting. Even in my room which is very quiet this intrigues me as it appears at first thought to be a great idea.  What differences do you notice using your cocoon as opposed to sitting in the open? It seems like something like what I'm visualizing would be a great idea for folks who have the WAF to deal with. Also it seems you posted a pic of this before, if you still have it would you please repost it? Thanks

Hi Warner,

Actually I think Bruno is the one who calls his room, the "listening cocoon". 

I think his set up is a different approach to mine.

I constructed (cheaply, but it could be done tastefully with commercially available materials) an actual "enclosed" chamber, that surrounds my chair.  So I term it a "Listening Chamber".

For practical purposes, it reduces or absorbs most all mid and high freq room reflection.

So when you sit down to listen, you don't hear the room to any appreciable degree (compared to "open room" systems)

This chamber coupled with rather nearfield seating creates a sonic immediacy and less intrusion by reflection.

Too be sure it does not eliminate all comb filtering at some frequencies and other little gremlins, but the accuracy improvement over standard rooms is startling.

For those who are very used to hearing a room and thinking it is part of the performance, it is quite a paradigm shift.

[John Casler]

Interesting discussion.

I wonder what the psycho-acoustic considerations might be to having a completely isolated room?

Of course we don't want the fridge, boiler or diesel engine interfering with our enjoyment of music, but perhaps a little outside noise occassionally is desirable?

Bearing in mind we are said to be striving to produce a live performance, where there is no end of interference, yet our brains can filter out most of these intrusions.

While you many times hear that "this or that" doesn't make any difference because our brain will "hear" the first signal or whatever, I say "balderdash".

There is no test that will tell you what the brain hears (in a sonic version of a visual) doesn't hear, or rejects, at the smallest levels.

I can't think of any reason one would "desire" to hear listening environment noises when listening to recorded music

After spending (many times) $Thousands$ of dollars, for the lowest distortion, and cleanest sound, to have an out of system distraction, can foil your goal.

[BrunoB]

I think Bruno has a comparable set up called the "Listening Cocoon", and no doubt he too has developed a keen ability to perceive extraneous noise.

Actually, I called it  "Sound Cocoon", but some some of my visitors called it foam igloo or foam cocoon or simply "The Cocoon". It is larger than a chamber in which only one person can sit. The foam was hanging from the ceiling to the floor and was placed  one to to three feet  away from the wall. This setup adsorb mid and high frequencies but also improve bass.


I also tried to place the speakers outside in the backyard in order to remove room reflections completely. It did not work so well and one reason is that there was too much background noise (cars, birds, insects , ...)

Bruno

[James Romeyn]

There was previously one wall & door seperating my soundroom from the kitchen, far off to the right in the L-extension.  I added another wall & door on the side of my room to make it symmetrical.  I can't tell you how nice is the extra soundproofing between listeners & the kitchen noise.  It probably added as much benefit as did the symmetrical boundaries within the room.