[CIAudio]

No one knows except Dusty what he has done to the modules. He is being secretive....so we don't know if he changed one part or what. You change one part and you can call it proprietary. I will look VERY closely at his module and I will let everyone know exactly what he has done (unless he has done something I can steal and use that I don't want any other competitors to know)..he.he....now my own proprietary mods....he he...I am NOT going to reveal all either....he he....you will have to wait till one of my competitors gets ahold of my amp and reveals all....the drama unfolds...he he...

Ric, you must be a real technical genius to need to look at my amp to build yours
 
Since you're such an audio guru, why don't you stick with your own ideas.

Then you want to post my R&D for all the DIY community? You're a real piece of .... work.

-Dusty-

[theborg]

No one knows except Dusty what he has done to the modules. ...  I will look VERY closely at his module and I will let everyone know exactly what he has done

Ric, I'm sorry but I will have to disallow that. There are a lot of manufacturers on this site and making it work requires that they have some respect and consideration for each other. Please do not post information that another manufacturer may consider to be confidential.

As a general rule, I would recommend focussing on explaining your own work, rather than that of others.

Thanks

[James Romeyn]

I don't want to get booted for this, & if making this comment is prohibited, please have mercy & just delete it.

One manufacturer at the circle completely tore a new alimentary canal into another manufacturer (by physically disecting a product & degrading the product to death for all to read) & I don't recall any distress by the board managers.  It's just a bit distressing that the same warnings weren't given back then.  The same culprit even very recently makes fun of the same other manufacturer by mocking & cynically poking fun.  I would personally like to see the board managers enforce the same manners consistently throughout.

My 2c, & I am only in favor of more & greater consistency, not for the bar to be lowered for everyone or anyone in particular.

[zybar]

I don't want to get booted for this, & if making this comment is prohibited, please have mercy & just delete it.

One manufacturer at the circle completely tore a new alimentary canal into another manufacturer (by physically disecting a product & degrading the product to death for all to read) & I don't recall any distress by the board managers.  It's just a bit distressing that the same warnings weren't given back then.  The same culprit even very recently makes fun of the same other manufacturer by mock ...

Jim,

Looks like some painful lessons were learned and the appropriate changes made.

I am happy to see that the bar is being raised and not lowered.

George

[guest1632]

No one knows except Dusty what he has done to the modules.  He is being secretive....so we don't know if he changed one part or what.  You change one part and you can call it proprietary.  I will look VERY closely at his module and I will let everyone know exactly what he has done (unless he has done something I can steal and use that I don't want any other competitors to know)..he.he....now my own proprietary mods....he he...I am NOT going to reveal all either....he he....you will have to wait till one of  ...

Hi Rick,

Well, now, ... inquiring minds want to know. I'm not interested so much as to the circuit design or necessarily the proprietary stuff you have done, rather what have you done that makes your version of the UCD amps different. There are a lot of people out there selling these puppies. Interesting enough, I haven't read anything bad about Dusty's amps. This isn't to say that they are perfect, or anything like that, just haven't seen any negatives. Maybe, one, a long breakin time. This can be said for some of the analog amps too. One example is the Odysey amps.

Is that transformer idea a subttle one or a night and day difference?

Ray

[James Romeyn]

George
Your response was heartening.  Thanks.  

It's my humble opinion forum moderators should be encouraged not to mock a direct competitor.

[Ric Schultz]

Dusty,
Oh my....stepped on your toes...sorry.

No problem with not stating on this forum what you are doing in your amp. But lets face it, everyone wants to know what the differences are...this question was just asked directly of me and now again from Ray.  So, if I know what the differences are then I cannot say because I might give someone elses "secret" info out....hmmmmmmmmm.  Oh well.  I certainly don't want to start any flame wars...peace lover here.  However, if some other manufacturer dissects my amp and tells everyone here what I am doing I don't mind.  But I will try an keep it to myself as long as possible....naturally, I do want to sell amps.  I have been tweaking for about 30 years so many of my subtle tweaks (including the steel on the tranny thing) I usually keep to myself so I can make a truly unique super product.  

I certainly don't need to look at your amp to design mine...My design is finished...for today...for tomorrow I will tweak some more.

As far as designing my own things....what is "my own"...for that matter what is "your own".  There are very few new things in the world.  Most of what us designers do is take ideas from others and synthesis them into our own version.  Very, very few totally unique things.  Have you ever created a unique design thing that no one else has ever done?????   As creative as I am I have only come up with one or two truly unique ideas.  I look towards you, oh wise one and all the other wise ones on the planet (all 6 billion of them...I mean it). So, yes, I will look EVERYWHERE I can for ideas to make my products better... I hope you do the same.  A real seeker looks under every rock.  There is so much to know...the more I know, the more I know that I know nothing...it is infinite.  Humbling it is.  I know that I have just scratched the surface of the UCD module and its possiblities....it will be an exciting ride.


Ray,
It seems we have politics here.  For me to tell you how my amp is different than Dusty's would be to violate what the moderator just stated, because I will have to explain exactly what he is doing and what I am doing so will have to tell all of Dusty's execution...which he obviously does not want revealed.  Now if we were talking about Spectron....since they do not have a forum here...then no one would mind a bid if I expained bit for bit the differences between my amp and the Spectron.  John Ulrich would not chime in and the moderator would not chime in....it is merely that Dusty has a forum here so in courtesy to him we cannot talk about his product....oh well.  I can only describe what I do....On Audiogon or on Audio Asylum (if asked the question directly) then things like that could be stated.  I wish it were different, but this is how it is.  I like an open forum where all can be discussed.  But I understand, the nature of the manufacturers forums here.  I might put a page on my website that details the differences between my amp and others so that I do not have to constantly describe it to each customer when they call (they all want to know, just like you).  This way I can get more done and give better service.  Until then, you can call me and I will gladly discuss my design stuff and differences between different brands. It seems that in high-end audio there is kind of a super sensitivity thing about not mentioning others products...I really don't understand this.  When you watch TV...you will see ads from one car company saying they have more leg room than "them" and more horsepower than "them" and no one seems to give a hoot.  But in high end audio....we are not suppose to talk about another as if it is forbidden to compare.  I personally think this is counterproductive to progress and growth.  Truth will set you free, unless you have something to gain from hiding.

Try the transformer thing for yourself and let me know what you hear....it is a small relative change but quite noticeable and better.  Everyone that I know who has tried it heard the benefits, including a PS Audio HCA owner recently.

[Russell Dawkins]

Speaking of the effect of steel plates on the xformers, I wonder why more amp designers don't try to avoid metal where not essential.

Yves Bernard André, the designer of YBA amplifiers, and quite tweak-oriented, told me that his amps all sounded better with the covers off, and even better when the internal wires were moved away from the metal case bottom by supporting them somehow.
He went on to say that if it more practical, he would like to avoid metal casework completely , in the interest of the sound.

The only manufacturer that I'm aware of who actually does something about this at this point (Mission used to with the Cyrus range) is Dennis Morecroft of DNM fame. His cases are some form of resin, I believe.

I would imagine the main impediment would be UL certification in light of the fire hazard associated with most of the easy alternatives, like wood and plastic.

[Ric Schultz]

Serge Smidlin of Audio-consulting.ch and his clone...he he...Kyle of Reference Audio Mods use wood as chassis.....I made a wood transformer box years ago.  I would love to build a pure wood chassis for an all out UCD amp for someone.   Imagine a modified UCD 700 mono block in gorgeous wood....1500 watt (26 lb.) Plitron trannie for the main supply....two other 50 watt toroids....7 Jensen caps per channel....the only heat sink on the module would be a nice hunk of brass....any takers?....about $4500? the pair....or we could use the Audioconsulting transformers/chokes to take it to the moon!  I wanna tweak....I wanna tweak...give me tweak.

[guest1632]

Dusty,
Oh my....stepped on your toes...sorry.

No problem with not stating on this forum what you are doing in your amp. But lets face it, everyone wants to know what the differences are...this question was just asked directly of me and now again from Ray.  So, if I know what the differences are then I cannot say because I might give someone elses "secret" info out....hmmmmmmmmm.  Oh well.  I certainly don't want to start any flame wars...peace lover here.  However, if some other manufacturer dissects my ...

Hi Rick,

Well, ... In the long run of things, I would bet both you and Dusty would feel the same. To clarify my stance here, it would be nice in a general fashion to know what Dusty has done, and I'm asking you the same. Reading the review on Dusty's first UCD amp, it was clear from the review that Dusty has heavily modified the module.

As to yours, I'm not exactly asking for specifics but rather some general ideas as to what makes yours sound better than the stock modules. I don't have for example, the exact knowledge that Stan Warren is doing, but I have enough of the idea to know what he is doing. I won't tell anybody, out of respect for his amps, but his ideas are interesting nevertheless. So I am asking you the same. Now, if that means I should just call you or you can PM me. That's ok. Kevin's amps are pretty much just stock, and that's ok. I have over the years been around manufacturers and have been involved in some pretty juicy technical stuff, which by today's standards is old hat. I respected their wishes then, and would certainly respect yours and Dusty's too. Anyway, Moderator, sorry to hijax this thread, but I wanted to make things clear.  

Ray

[Ric Schultz]

I'll give you as much as I can.
Obviously, I am not going to share here some of my tweak ideas on the modules.  And these tweaks are not going to be shared with anyone, even on the phone (people tend to blab, no matter what they say they will do). But I can talk some about execution and power supplies.  I use the world's sonically best parts and hook them up in the purest way I know how.  For instance, my stock input connector is the OFC Sound Connections (Vampire) jack.  Not only is this jack sonically superior to most but I solder the ground wire directly to the body, bypassing the tab.  I also have an option for the even more transparent WBT Nextgen connector on the input. The input wire (custom litz at this point) is soldered directly to the bottom of the board to the point closest to the input stage (not to the top of the board and not using the input connector pins on the top of the board).  Basically, I make the signal path as short as possible for more transparent sound.  Same with the output wires.  These wires are soldered to the underneath side of the board directly at their most short place.  The output hot wire is soldered directly to the output pin of the output coil, again allowing more transparency.  Same with all power supply wiring...all wired in the shortest signal path possible, using world class cryoed hook-up wire.   Everything is hardwired, there are no additional circuit boards other than the module itself. The transformer thing I have already spoken of:  Three things better than most execution.  Great sounding transformer, hooked up with no magnetic material around it and separate power transformer for the input stage (also hooked up in the same way).  I treat the AC fuse with the Xtreme AV Quicksilver Gold goop and am listening this next week to see if I will offer the German silver fuses as options (if they improve the sound, then of course).  I have options for Jensen caps which most feel are the best sounding electrolytic caps.  I damp the modules in two ways and damp many other parts.  The power cord I supply is the audiophile listened and approved shielded 14 gauge Volex cord, not a cheap 18 gauge throw away cord.  

Another thing I have going is that it is a completely open ended design.  Some manufacturers will spend some time with something, finalized it and then move on to the next product and that first product is basically frozen in time...no updates ever.  Now some very conservative types like this kind of stability.  They know that when they buy an XYZ amp that they don't have to worry about what version it is or when it was upgraded, etc. I am not just trying to make one good product in a whole product line.  I am only making this amp, nothing else at this point, and being a tweakhead I will be playing with the amp until....who knows when....always trying to squeeze some more musicality and transparency and dynamic aliveness out of it.  So, there will be updates and revisions....if this is too scary then buy a "done deal, frozen in time" design.  The amps are relatively light and upgrades can be done in a day or two in the shop. Upgrade pricing will be wholesale direct, as usual.  

There is more than half the sale amount in parts costs in my amps....yes, a $2200 pair of mono blocks has about $1200 in my parts cost....serious stuff here.  I make a $1000 so that is good for me and the customer gets a totally handmade piece of tweak gear that has $1200 in parts made by someone who has been designing and modifiying high end audio gear for close to 30 years and gives a 30 day money back guarantee with no restocking fee....I would say that is a win-win.  Compare this to the parts cost in a $2200 retail amp.

I guess this is about as much chest beating as I can stand...currently bleeding from the pounding...he he.  Most all the information about pricing and options is on my website.  If you have any other questions, let me know.  I will have a pair of all out mono block demo amps for local listening in about one week.....should be fun.

[guest1632]

I'll give you as much as I can.
Obviously, I am not going to share here some of my tweak ideas on the modules.  And these tweaks are not going to be shared with anyone, even on the phone (people tend to blab, no matter what they say they will do). But I can talk some about execution and power supplies.  I use the world's sonically best parts and hook them up in the purest way I know how.  For instance, my stock input connector is the OFC Sound Connections (Vampire) jack.  Not only is this jack sonically su ...

That's the kind of stuff, that DIYers everwhere can learn from.

I presume too, you have some proprietary circuitry that you are doing? Is it discrete, or using IC's? So what does your circuit design do that the typical stock won't do, and where would I find an example of this design?What preamp would you match this amp up to?

Understand Rick, eventually, I'm gonna organize a shootout with a system using a set of these amps/preamp combos, and a good source. I just want the best, and whoever has it, I will eventually buy.

Ray

[Ric Schultz]

Ray,
You don't guit....he he, I will grant you that.  Sorry, the stuff you ask about it the stuff I am not talking about.  You will just have to wait and see how it sounds.....the only thing that matters.

People who have not seriously tweaked tend to get hung up on one aspect of design or execution.  Like Class A, or tubes versus solid state, single ended verus push pull, or discrete versus op amp or feedback versus not or changing a particular cap to whatever or using a certain brand of resistor or whatever.  There are hundreds of things in an amp that effect the sound.  Having about 30 years of tweaking experience and constantly reading everything I can about new tweaks gives me lots of tweak ammo. Even the brand of solder you use completely effects the sound.  So one persons amp using a discrete circuit could sound much worse than someone elses op amp circuit.  Someones feedback circuit could sound much better than someone elses non-feedback circuit, someones class A amp could sound much worse than a class A/B or D or whatever, etc.  What I try to do is cover ALL the bases as much as possible (given the price point, obviously): circuit design, parts and execution.  This way you get the most out of something.  One thing not done well can bring down the transparency tremendously.

Whether to use a preamp or not and what brand/type is totally subjective.  Naturally, some like the lush sound of tubes...like the Modwright or the new battery powered Dodd that some say sounds better than the Modwight and everything else.  Some will prefer the pure transparency of a passive, transformer or resistor based.  Some will like a buffered passive, like Stan Warrens new jobbie. I have an option for built in Ultimate Attenuators that has nothing in the series path except a nude damped Vishay resistor.  Nude Vishay, Caddock or whatever resistors can then be used on a 24 position switch to switch different resistors to ground.  This is what I will be using.  Later in the year I am going to be looking at making a battery powered solid state single input preamp....all out...I think I should be able to do it for around $1000....we shall see.

[guest1632]

Ray,
You don't guit....he he, I will grant you that.  Sorry, the stuff you ask about it the stuff I am not talking about.  You will just have to wait and see how it sounds.....the only thing that matters.

People who have not seriously tweaked tend to get hung up on one aspect of design or execution.  Like Class A, or tubes versus solid state, single ended verus push pull, or discrete versus op amp or feedback versus not or changing a particular cap to whatever or using a certain brand of resistor or wha ...

Hi Rick,

Well, first of all, as a non-tweaker, because I can't see to do the tweaks, I'm not hung up on any one particular aspect. Your circuit design diffeneces you can talk about this in a general way, like grounding and such.  I have a pretty good idea of for example what Stan Warren is doing, but don't know the exact circuit design. I don't need to know the circuit either. I am like yours looking forward to hearing it too. So let me try to rephrase this.:

What does your circuit changes do that no one else is doing?

Could you tell me what solder you are using? I don't think that would be violating your rules. I'd like to know that so I can go get some. I've been wondering what would be the best stuff to get. Thanks.

Ray

[sungyle]

Jim,
I cannot tell you exactly the difference between our amps because I have only seen a picture of some of the CIA inerds.  Once I have closely examined the CIA amps I will be able to tell you more but some things I consider proprietary and will not divulge for awhile... Basically it is all in the details.  I would say Dusty is about a 3 to 4 on the 10 point tweaker scale. 1 being someone who does not believe in parts (like John at Spectron) and 10 being someone like Serge Smidlin (sp?) of Audio-consulti ...

Thankyou, you have once again asserted the huge gap between engineers and tweakers.  If changing the characteristics of the toroidal power supply transformer made a difference to your sound then you were clearly using unsuitable power supply filtering.  These amp modules have DC input rails, and no matter what you do to a straight line (perfect DC obtained by good filtering) no amount of tweaking is going to make it any straighter. I wonder if you have taken the time to assess your own knowledge against Bruno's?  No insult intended, I don't consider myself to be as knowledgeable as Bruno in the design of class D amps either (my major work is in RF).

Using the incorrect type of capacitor in an audio line can definitely have detrimental effects on the signal, but there has never been any evidence (including A/B test) to show a difference between a good quality capacitor and a more expensive 'exotic' one. The placement of capacitors in an audio line is often a compromise of sorts, but no change in brands can change the fact that it is still a capacitor.

As for the different sounds of exotic connectors and cables over less expensive ones - don't you think that the engineers behind these designs, in taking into account all sorts of changes in component characteristics over load and frequency change, etc, are the very best candidates for assessing the suitability of interconnects?  Certainly more so than the wildly 'creative' individuals making a lot of money from snake-oil.
Taken from the Eichmann Cables website:

Eichmann Ratio™ formula
Named after Australian inventor Keith Eichmann – the Eichmann Ratio™ formula is a ratio between signal and return conductors, where the return has a greater cross-sectional area and mass than the signal.

The Ratio forces the return conductor to respond rapidly to signals being transmitted through the signal conductor, at the same time providing a balance of reactance between signal and return. This ensures that all frequencies and their harmonics are transmitted in a more perfect state.

The result is cleaner signal transfer. Which translates to better sound quality.


In these cables the negative wire is larger than the red.  Ummm, Mr Eichmann, electrons travel from negative to positive....  Sorry to be a bearer of bad news.

p.s. there are cases where a designer may build a 'safety' feature into the design, such as input decoupling caps, and if this feature is not necessary for the application then there would be a gain in removing it from the line.

[sungyle]

No one knows except Dusty what he has done to the modules.  He is being secretive....so we don't know if he changed one part or what.  You change one part and you can call it proprietary.  I will look VERY closely at his module and I will let everyone know exactly what he has done (unless he has done something I can steal and use that I don't want any other competitors to know)..he.he....now my own proprietary mods....he he...I am NOT going to reveal all either....he he....you will have to wait till one of  ...

actually, no engineers I know ever 'freaked out' over the removal of filtering, filters have always been a known point of distortion.  The filters on the output stage of class d amps have more to do with removing harmonics than removing the carier frequency (actually, at the carrier frequencies the inductors can act as capacitors and the capacitors as inductors - though not always the case luckily for RF engineers!).  These functions are well known and explain very easily the differences in sound and in such understanding the difference is as always scientifically disearnable.  However, try and get a class D amp past RF emissions tests necessary for import to most countries without filtering!  By the frequencies at which the standard filtering is becoming ineffective the emission is no longer of real concern because the commonly used speaker cabling will not provide an adequate antenna for subsantial dB transmission.

[sungyle]

I'll give you as much as I can.
Obviously, I am not going to share here some of my tweak ideas on the modules.  And these tweaks are not going to be shared with anyone, even on the phone (people tend to blab, no matter what they say they will do). But I can talk some about execution and power supplies.  I use the world's sonically best parts and hook them up in the purest way I know how.  For instance, my stock input connector is the OFC Sound Connections (Vampire) jack.  Not only is this jack sonically su ...

Sounds like serious stuff!  Your so good I can't believe you don't design your own circuit!  Obviously i'm being sarcastic because if you could you probably would.  How proud you must be!  (also sarcasm)

[sungyle]

Hi Rick,

Well, first of all, as a non-tweaker, because I can't see to do the tweaks, I'm not hung up on any one particular aspect. Your circuit design diffeneces you can talk about this in a general way, like grounding and such.  I have a pretty good idea of for example what Stan Warren is doing, but don't know the exact circuit design. I don't need to know the circuit either. I am like yours looking forward to hearing it too. So let me try to rephrase this.:

What does your circuit changes do that no  ...

It is tempting to assume that he will not tell you because he has no real engineering capabilities and his mods may be pointless and/or cosmetic at best, but then I think that's what your getting at anyway, isn't it? hehe

[guest1632]

actually, no engineers I know ever 'freaked out' over the removal of filtering, filters have always been a known point of distortion.  The filters on the output stage of class d amps have more to do with removing harmonics than removing the carier frequency (actually, at the carrier frequencies the inductors can act as capacitors and the capacitors as inductors - though not always the case luckily for RF engineers!).  These functions are well known and explain very easily the differences in sound and in suc ...

Hey Sungyle,

there is 1 tweak which I will do when I get my modules. That .68UF cap on the output will go away in favor off two Wimas .33UFcaps. A couple of people on the DIY forum have done the tweak and apparently the measurements looked better at reducing some of those emissions. On the newer version 6.1 Bruno has replaced the 2 decoupling ceramic caps with I think electrolytic caps of the same value. better sound.Just thought I'd share that with you.

Ray