[ka7niq]

I have TRT Spiral RM 40's, and have spent the last week crawling back and forth between speakers, removing and adding putty.
I have the rug burns on my knees to prove it!

I really was getting anywhere but lost,  trying to tune both speakers at once.
So here is what I did.
I put on an Oak Ridge boys CD,  and listened to a song by them.
It goes something like "Say what needs saying, Pray what needs praying, cause we're only on this Earth for a little while" etc, etc.
I find this to be an excellent tuning song for RM40 because there are several male voices singing, and a lead male voice that will tell you "right quick"  Florida Redneck style,  if the speaker is tuned or not.

I have to admit, I was getting a bit frustrated tuning the 40's, then I remembered that Brian said to tune em one at a time.

So, here is what I did.
I reduced tweeter level to minimum, just one more distraction I didnt need to listen to.
I set my midrange pot at the factory setting, and unhooked one speaker by removing a DAC/Preamp wire {my preamp lacks balance control}
I played the Oak Ridge Boys song over and over while removing putty a tad at a time.
When I got close, it became a fingernail scrape full, until suddenly not only the lead male singer sounded right, but the background harmony was right too.

Then, I went to the next speaker, and did the same.
BUT, check this out!
At the "factory setting" of the midrange pot, I could not get an exact tonal match to the other speaker, no matter what ?

I swear I heard a voice {I am off my meds} telling me to "trust my ears" and so I did it, I committed "sacriliege".
 I reduced the midrange level a bit below the marked "level" of the
other speaker.'

I listened to both speakers again, one at a time, to be sure they were sonically identical.
They were.
And so, I reconnected both speakers, and gradually brought in the tweeters until it sounded right on a variety of music.

I wound up with the midrange pots a little shy of "factory" settings, and the tweeters at 12 O'clock.
I plan to play with the tweeters more tomorrow, but I am almost afraid to touch anything!

And, get this, the putty amounts I removed are not totally equal, but close.

Personally, I dont care if the putty amounts are exactly equal, or the levels either.
They are very close, not that that matters anymore to me now.
My center image and tonal balance are dead nuts, and soundstage will go out wall to wall on the right recording.

I am using all tubes in my equipment right up to my finals which are big Mosfets.
I had to re roll most of my tubes when the RM 40's came.
My Von Schweikerts are a bit dark sounding, and so i had my "detail tubes" in my amp/preamp and DAC.

RM 40 said "No way Jose' " to these tubes,  and so I brought in my Mullards, RCA Clear Tops, etc.
These tubes have the "old school" tube sound, that is rich, warm, and romantic.
And, they are very 3 Dimensional.

RM 40 will tell you quick, real quick, if you have a tube lacking dimension.

For instance, my Moscode 600 amp uses 6FQ7's.
If I put the EI 6FQ7 in there, the image only extends slightly wider then the speakers.
The Sylvania 6FQ7 gets the image almost to the walls, but the good old RCA Cleartop 6FQ7 "stretches" the image to, and beyond the side walls!

Oh, BTW, I REFUSE to hook up my subwoofers until my RM 40's are finally tuned.
I may be wrong, but I believe in making a speaker sound as good as I can w/o subwoofers first.'
Then, the subwoofers are like icing on the cake.
Subwoofers also can create up ward masking, obscuring what I need to hear for tuning.
Tomorrow, the subs can play, it was too late to do it this evening.

I am only using 14 gauge RCA speaker wire I bought at Home Depot single wire with jumper.
I do plan to get another run and bi wire with it.
All of my interconnects are ones that come stock with cheap receivers, DVD players, etc.
I do plan to "play" with these soon.

I want to say thanks to everyone who helped me get these going, Warnerwh, John Casler, Brian, and everyone else for all your suggestions.

I know I probably tuned them in a different way, but it worked for me, and it worked well.
Thanks Everyone!
Chris

[warnerwh]

On my Rm 40's I'm running them full range with a sub crossed in at 45hz, exactly where Brian recommends and somehow he got it exactly right . I know as I've tried it higher and lower 5 hz and this seems to be the perfect spot.  You need little power to your sub and this also helps with room nodes as you have woofers firing from three different positions.

Glad you're able to make progress with the RM 40's. Many people have had trouble there in the putty department. Being on my third pair of Vmps speakers it's a non issue. You just need to relax and take your time and you will be able to enjoy music much more.  When the vocals and bass are right it's wonderful, and quite audible.  

Be sure to use other cd's too. Tuning to only one cd can lead to problems as many of us have discovered. As with everything else in life you have to find the best compromise for all the music you listen to. It may not be different at all but sometimes is.

Changing amps brings a distinct change in the sonics of Vmps speakers and you'll find you may(probably) will need to adjust the putty again.  I bring this up because with tube gear changing tubes can be like changing amps to some degree.

Not to change the topic's subject but how do describe the sound of your Moscode compared to say a good SS amp? Thanks

[ka7niq]

Sigh .....
You are correct Warner, I listened this AM and it became obvious that the midrange level is too high on some things.
Cyndi Laupers voice was too foreward and lacks body.
The 40's are tuned to sound their best on good recordings.
I need to compromise a bit to make them more balanced by reducing the levels slightly.

I am hoping the mid woofer upgrade witll make them a tad less "touchy" ?

[warnerwh]

I'd say room treatment would help the most.  As you well know these are ruthlessly revealing speakers. People talk about revealing with other speakers but I doubt they are as revealing as these in most cases.

Some room treatment to tame the peaks will help alot and make them less "touchy".  Also you have to combine speaker position, listening position and the tweaking of the speaker itself together for a fine audio stew.  At least this is what I would do with any speaker. It usually takes more than a couple of days and more like a couple of months before I"m happy. I've noticed others feel the same way. It's well worth it in the end. You learn alot about room acoustics and get truly satisfying sound.  

The above of course assumes you have liberty with placement and being able to use room treatment.  Sometimes the wifey poo will have her own opinion of how things should look.  I can assure you Cheryl would have a fit if she saw in our living room what's in my listening room.  It would be time to hide the guns

At least you learned something.  Any truly high quality speaker will take time to get right if you're goal is the best sound possible with what you have.  What gets me is these guys say "my speakers sound bright" on so many threads of various speakers it's hard to believe. Then they want to try to relieve the problem with wire when the culprit is in the acoustics of their rooms!

If you don't have a Rives cd and an analog Radio Shack spl meter you should get one. You can get a fair idea of what's going on in your room. Remember that the average room has peaks and dips of plus or minus 15db so don't be shocked when you have this horrible looking graph in front of you. You can get good graph paper for this purpose on the Rives audio site.

[ka7niq]

BTW, the Moscode 600 is a wonderful amp.
It is powerful, warm, rich, and dimensional.
It sounds more like a tube amp then transistor because it uses tube regulation on it's input stage.
Tubes, regulation tubes, what a concept ?

Honestly, in my opinion, my RM 40's are the best I have heard any sound, and I have two friends who also own them here in the Tampa area.
In all fairness to Melankev, his were new, and i havent heard his lately.
But mine sound better, much better to me, then my friend who is using a solid state amp on them.

I really believe they like tubes, it seems to flesh them out a bit, and of course I dont know of many solid state amps/preamps/dac's that can match the imaging abilities of Tubes.
But, I havent heard everything ....

[warnerwh]

I agree that these speakers really like tubes.  The Blue Circle amp I have taught me that if you want full, smooth and natural sound like reality then tubes are a necessity. Right now I have an AVA 550EXR I just put into my system a couple of hours ago.  This amp is also a hybrid like the BC.  Will listen to it some more in a while.  

The person I bought the AVA amp from also learned on his RM 2's that having tubes on top is way better than running just an SS amp.  He's presently auditioning tube amps to try as the AVA was over kill and expensive to him.

Thanks for the note on the Moscode.  That's probably a great amp to also try.  Used ones come up for sale on Audiogon here and there.  

I believe Kevin runs his tube amps full range and is happy with the sound. I believe he said his bottom end is soft but he seems completely content and that's all that matters.  With an SS amp on the RM series speaker I don't think you can get the realism possible that some tubes in the chain offer. These speakers are so revealing that any SS or transistor sound is clearly audible, this is all gone with just a couple of tubes. I've read numerous times over the years that tubes and planars are a match made in heaven, I concur.

[John Casler]

Chris,

Looks like you are having too much fun.

Who would have thought you could take a speaker that doesn't even have all the latest and greatest and bring it to this potential?

(Answer....is most of us who have these darn things in our systems)

It is also great to see the breadth of equipment that people find pleasurable to use, from tubes to SS.

I do know that the tube gear we used at CES did sound quite special and wasn't lacking in bass clarity and detail in the slightest.

That said, the Ampzilla, and NuFORCE amps I use in my system, bring a lot to the party too, and I can't get enough of them over here.

I might also caution you about trying to get "every" recording to sound good.  While it is possible to improve each one a bit with the adjustments, it is a tedious task indeed.

I find that if I tune the speakers, room and system to my Reference Recordings, then it is pretty much "set it" and "forget it".

Much of the fun for me is (after they are tuned) is settling in to what the engineer intended the recording to sound like.

Keep in mind that some "high compression - red liners" will not sound as good no matter what.  A good example is this years "Grammy Nominees" CD.  

Some of the cuts are highly compressed and raw, while others are well engineered and sound excellent.

On lesser systems of lower resolution, they will all sound "smooth".  Not really what I want to hear.  I want to hear every sound that makes it real.  If it is a studio recording....then I want to "HEAR" the recording studio.  I want to hear the individual recording booths (and I do)

If it is live then I want to hear the room or venue it was recorded in.

In my present set up, I am closer to the recording than I have ever been.  It is hard to get out of the "listening chair"    

Again, it is great to see you having so much fun.  Keep us informed.

[warnerwh]

Excellent point John. Reference type audiophile recordings are a good gauge.  Once they sound right you just have to leave it as is because recordings vary so much in quality.  For the bass Brian Halverson's Wood II cd is excellent with outstanding bass and piano. Recorded on the Telarc label it's a good gauge.

You'll know it after a while what is right and what is not. It takes some time to tune your ears.

[ka7niq]

nt

[Brian Cheney]

Ka7niq:

If you tune the RM 40's with male volcals it is easy to make female vocals sound a little thin.  Conversely, tuning with female vocals may thicken male voices too much.

One of my favorite "tuning" CD's is the 2002 revival of "Flower Drum Song" which features male and female vocals, orchestra, Chinese percussion, chorus, bass drum, thundersheet and very clear digital sonics.
It allows you to zoom in on all kinds of tonal differences and address them all at the same time.

In your case, if Oak Ridge Boys are great but Cyndi Lauper is thin, just remove a fingernailful of putty from ONE SIDE ONLY.  This will fill her in without weighing down the males.  Works for me every time.

Of course, if you paint (vitrify) your PR's with the yellow Elmer's you'll get a nice improvement and will want to take a little more mass off the PR again, just a fingernailful from each side to compensate for the mass of the glue.
The extra cone rigidity really improves bass definition.  Do both sides.

[ka7niq]

Brian,

All my tuning info is flawed!
I have the Moscode 600 in the car, and I am leaving to go over to my technicians house to get it repaired.
It had a distortion on the leading edge of male vocals, and a glare in then upper mids.
This necessiated me mis tuning the 40's to 'cover up" this problem.
I was forced to remover way more putty, and decrease the ribbon levels,  bringing the woofer more into the party to get an "acceptable" sound.

All was not in waste however, as i have gained valueable experience tuning them.

The 40's are sounding splendid with my back up amp, a heavily modified Ashly FET 500.
The Ashly FET 500 is a pro sound theatre amp,  made by Ashly for Kelmar Sysytems for high end movie theatre screening systems.
It uses the old can type MosFets, 8 per side, and a very large transformer.

My tech went into the feedback loop, and replaced or bypassed all caps with good ones.

The filter caps were changed with double the capacitance, and then bypassed with polys.

The bias was increased, and the fan slowed down with a capacitor to make the amp run hotter.
We feel that old Mosfets sound better warm.

The DC input  blocking cap was jumpered with silver braid, and heavier wire was run from the transformer to the power suply.

It has that "Old Can Type Mosfet" sound, a rich, warm midrange, great bass, but a sloghtly soft top end.
My kind of sound.
It dont image quite as well as the Moscode 600, but it's acceptable.

Whether it will untimately replace the Moscode 600 is anyones guess.
The Moscode is sick, time to go see the doctor!

I have an old Cal Audio Labs Tube Dac I am going to trade with my technician for Moscode repair, a win/win for both of us.

BTW, my tech warned me that I MAY not like the Moscode when he gets finished !
Not that he is incompentent, but he flat warned me that in his experience, many "high end" amps are little more then glorified tone controls that you cant turn off!

According to him, and he builds his own amps from scratch, some designers deliberately design amps to deviate from flat frequency response!

He is concerned that the Moscode may be one of these amps.
Moscode 600 was designed and voiced on Quad 63's, a very dull speaker, IMHO, especially up top.
There may be a tipped up tonal balance deliberately designed into it, we dont know until we get it on the bench.

I watchyed him play with my other amps feedback loop until he made it flat out to 30k!

Everytime he made a feedback change, he measured the amp at 5 different points, and then plotted the response!

I know this is "old hat" to you Brian, having friends like Jim and John Curl, but for an ordinary audiophikle like me, it sure is nice having a technician who really cares.

Thanks for ALL your help Brian, I am off on another "Audio Adventure" LOL

Hey man, we have been at this a LONG time!
I played Jackson Brown's "Tender is the night" yesterday on the 40's.

It sounded good, real good, but I can still remember the way it sounded at your place on the Wide range Ribbons!
Chris