[jcoat007]

I have had my Xtremes set up in my new house and running constantly for over a month.  They have improved so much since I first got them, and I thought my system was sounding pretty good.  The only other person to hear my system has been wife, but she thinks my daughter’s boom-box sounds good.  So my father-in-law comes to town and stays with us for a few days.  He brings some CD’s of his own and we sit down to listen to my system.  He is the first person to hear my system, and he actually knows a little about music and audio.  I did not write down the titles that he brought, but they were all Naxos recordings.  We pop in the first disc and it absolutely sounds like shit.  It is shrill and cold and just terrible.  Nobody says anything except my wife who thinks it sounds great.  My father-in-law didn’t say a word.  I felt like saying it sounded like shit, but I just kept my mouth shut.  Then we played another disc that he brought and it was better, but still not very good.  

This was driving me crazy.  I had to do something.  So I put on some vinyl.  Oh man was it better.  Much better.  Berlioz - Symphony Fantastique and then The Ray Brown Trio – Soular Energy.  Smooth, dynamic and just plain fun.  Now I could see him just sitting there and he was very vocal about how good it sounded.  I was feeling much better at this point and I decided to put on a CD that I was familiar with; Stokowski Transcriptions of various classical pieces.  OK, now we are talking.  Strings sounded smooth, the music flowed like I knew it could.  We just sat there enjoying the music and having a great time.  

While it sounded good, I knew there was more to ring from my system.  One of the things that I have been playing with is sub and speaker placement.  This is where it starts to get interesting.  Tyson saw a photo of my setup and I had the subs right next to my rack, between the rack and each speaker.  Tyson told me to move the subs out and I would get better imaging and soundstage.  I moved them out to just outside each main speaker.  Like I said, the sound has been OK, but I knew it could be better.  I have been playing with sub-placement and moving them 4 to 6 inches at a time.  My father-in-law suggested that we move them out much further.  So he went to bed and I started moving my speakers around.  I moved the subs out as far as I could which is about 7 feet from the center of my rack to the center of the sub.  I moved my main speakers out another foot and a half, so now they are 4 ½ feet from the center of my rack to the center of each speaker and 4 feet off the back wall.  So the mains are 9 feet apart, center to center, and the listening position is about 11 feet from there.  It was late, so I didn’t even listen to anything right away.  

The next day we sit down to take a listen, and it was like some gremlin came in and gave me a new system.  The soundstage became larger than my room.  Imaging became holographic.  This was one of those jaw dropping, “OH MY GOD I CAN’T BELIEVE IT MADE THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE” moments.  Completely transformed my system from sounding good to sounding spooky good.  Now I just sit there and listen in utter amazement.  My father-in-law thought it sounded incredible and the difference after moving the speakers was huge.  

So anyway, my father-in-law went back home.  He turned on his own system and called me right away.  He says he won’t listen to his system for another month since he thinks his audio memory should be completely erased by then.  He has a Conrad-Johnson CD player/pre-amp combo, a Sumo Andromeda amp and Vandersteen 2C speakers with Zu Julian bi-wires.  With the exception of the Zu cables, his entire rig is almost 20 years old.  The last time I heard it, it sounded pretty good, but that was over two years ago.  I sent him home with some extra power cords that I had, but he hasn’t had a chance to insert them.  I hope they do some good.  

The point of the story is that speaker placement is just one of the major elements of this endeavor/hobby/obsession.  I had no idea what stereo subs could really do, and I am amazed that moving the subs had that much impact on the imaging and soundstage, but it has made a huge, gigantic impact.  

I am confident that room treatment is another facet that I still need to explore, and I will continue to tweak the speaker placement trying to find the ultimate locations.  But for now, it is sounding sweet.  

This is my current room layout.  



Have a great Memorial Day Weekend everyone.  

Steve

[mgalusha]

I never cease to be amazed by how much changes in setup can effect the sound. This past weekend Jason came by and we schlepped my system into the basement so that I could experiment with using one end of my HT room, the end opposite the screen and speakers.

Normally the system is located in our living room which is about 24x14 with a 16ft ceiling. The sound is open and spacious will superb imaging. It is, however, not as quiet as could be and my wife is not keen on the idea of room treatments in her living room.

The basement room is all mine and I figured I could put in enough room treatments and such to get a great sound. After (too) many trips up and down the stairs we finally had everthing connected and I had Jason perch in the estimated sweet spot while I tweaked things to get the sound right. We had it pretty good but not great. Good focus and clarity but lacking the spaciousness I was used to.

I had placed one of the subs in a corner and decided to try moving it in just a bit to see how it would work. The bass went from clean and tight to horribly boomy and I only moved the sub about 6 inches. Amazing considering I had full foam corner wedges behind the sub from floor to ceiling. I thought the foam would cut most of the boominess and didn't expect the amount of change that happend.

For now I'm back in the living room and it still sounds very good. Like everything else in this hobby the rooms are a trade off. One is quieter and much more intimate sounding while the other has more environmental noise but provides a very natural (to me) sound with a huge, spacious soundstage.

Really glad you have it singing for you Steve. I'll bet it really cooks with vinyl.

Hope everyone has a safe and happy holiday weekend!

Mike

[nathanm]

Remote-controlled, robotic speasker-moving platforms which allow precise placement of each monitor in 3D space.  Some hydraulics, stepper motors...you'd have repeatable preset placements with fine-tuning right from your listening chair.  Hell, you could get that flanger effect on that one album so dialed in it would seem like it's inside your brain!

[mgalusha]

Remote-controlled, robotic speasker-moving platforms which allow precise placement of each monitor in 3D space.  Some hydraulics, stepper motors...you'd have repeatable preset placements with fine-tuning right from your listening chair.

I remember reading an article with a tour of the Harmon International speaker development lab and they is exactly what they did. No comparing two designs side by side for them, they would just robotically swap out the speakers.

[jcoat007]

Remote-controlled, robotic speasker-moving platforms which allow precise placement of each monitor in 3D space. Some hydraulics, stepper motors...you'd have repeatable preset placements with fine-tuning right from your listening chair.

Dammit man, that's a million dollar idea.  How cool would that be.  You know, I met a guy a few years ago that worked for Sun Microsystems.  His official title was "Futurist". His job was to think of cool things that computers could/should/would do in the future.  Things no normal person like myself could ever think of.  I think you could be a "Futurist".  That idea alone qualifies you.  

You could get the placement so exact, all from the comfort of your listening chair.  What an idea.  How much would something like that cost?

[nathanm]

Well, it could start out small.  For minimonitors you could have a speaker stand which had a hydraulic piston that raised or lowered to adjust height.  The top platform could have a stepper motor that controlled rotation.  maybe if you wanted to get fancy you could also put a tilt up & down movement too.  Obviously you would still have to place the stands equidistant from each other and from the wall, the other controls would be more fine-tuning oriented.

It might be overkill to have it remote-controlled, but one mid-way point would be a stand that you had to adjust manually, but there were precision markings and lockable controls that allowed you to set things exactly.  So instead of eyeballing it (like I do now) you could plug in 44 degrees of toe in and 25.5" of height or whatever.

I dunno, it might be audiophillia nervosa, but I can't help but feel that unless the arrival times between the speakers are dead accurate you aren't getting the full monty.

How about a ceiling-mounted laser alignment device, kind of like the ones they use to hang drop ceilings, but one that drew a circle on your floor with lines where the speakers are supposed to go?  (I'm thinking HT here) hmmm...  I bet people with tiled floors have it much easier! Heh!

Anyone ever used laser devices for speaker alignment?

[nathanm]

Dammit man, that's a million dollar idea.  How cool would that be.  You know, I met a guy a few years ago that worked for Sun Microsystems.  His official title was "Futurist". His job was to think of cool things that computers could/should/would do in the future.  Things no normal person like myself could ever think of.  I think you could be a "Futurist".  That idea alone qualifies you.

  Aww shucks...  No seriously, I'm sure I'm not the first or only person to have such an idea.  Here's a guy a few orders of magnitude smarter than me:  Bong  Somewheres in there I thought I read something about adjustable speaker placement, but I'll be damned if I can find it again.

Er, that's cause it's here: Speaker Trak  Cool stuff! I think I probably subconsciously ripped off this idea now that I read it again. Sheesh!

[mgalusha]

Here's a guy a few orders of magnitude smarter than me:  Bong  

I love reading James Bongiorno's stuff. One of these days I may break down and order a Trinaural processor as he makes a very good case for it. From what I have read they do deliver the goods.

And yes, I use a laser pointer to align my speakers. I measure in from each sidewall and place a piece of masking tape on the back wall with a mark where the laser should point. I figure they are within .25 degrees of each other. I also used the laser to generate perpendicular lines to get them equidistant from the centerline and from the listening chair. I'm sure that's part of why I get a very good stereo image.

Mike

[nathanm]

You mean one of those Checkpoint Tools or the laser pointer things?

[randytsuch]

The checkpoint things look cool, but they are way too much for what they are.

I use a laser level from Radioshack, it was $40 I think, and it works well for me.  It's also a pretty nice level, for if you need a level it's a really good deal.  It also has a "switch" so it will either project a point or a line, which comes in handy.

Randy

[markC]

When I'm playing around with speaker placement, (again), I use one of those cheap laser pointer/key fob thingys to find out just where my tweets are aimed. I just place the laser on the inside face, (for the right speak this would be the left side of the speak), @ tweet height and shine the laser on a piece of cardboard stuck to my listening seat, (to get the correct height). For 2 bucks it's a pretty cool tool. This allows you to get precise alingment for toe-in.

[mgalusha]

Nathan,

I am using something similar to what Randy described. It's called a "Strait-Line" laser line generator. It has a lens to diffuse the laser so that it generates a dot with a line below it. I've actually found it useful for home improvement jobs as well. It has some retractable push pins that are somewhat useful for attaching it to a surface. Works better than a chalk line for sure.  It was about $40 at Home Depot but amazon is selling them for $35.

Mike

[Sa-dono]

Nathan,

I am using something similar to what Randy described. It's called a "Strait-Line" laser line generator. It has a lens to diffuse the laser so that it generates a dot with a line below it. I've actually found it useful for home improvement jobs as well. It has some retractable push pins that are somewhat useful for attaching it to a surface. Works better than a chalk line for sure.  It was about $40 at Home Depot but amazon is selling them for $35.

Mike

Do you happen to have the link handy Mike? TIA!