Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound

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warnerwh

Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« on: 22 Feb 2006, 11:13 pm »
Has anybody been able to compare the sound of the Hafler XL 600 to a Van Alstine amp? The reason I ask is because I've had this Hafler XL 600 sitting around and put it in my system yesterday. The sound compared to my Coda was excellent with the treble region being more relaxed and fuller but maybe not quite as clear. The entire presentation of the old Hafler is very relaxed and I should say very enjoyable.

I've been able to put a Rotel 991, Parasound Hca 1500A and Parasound HCA 3500 in my system. Only the Hafler has been able to compete with the Coda(innersound) and I'm not sure I don't prefer it. Unfortunately it sold within a couple of hours of putting it on Ebay so I have to give it up even though I went to take if off of Ebay last night when I saw someone bought it.

Just seems to me that AVA amps must be similar. I probably should have had the XL 600 freshened up although it doesn't appear to need it.  Thanks for any help.

WEEZ

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Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #1 on: 23 Feb 2006, 12:14 am »
Never heard either one.

However, if you do a search on the Hafler amps; two companies seem to stand out in the re-build/upgrade category and AVA is one of them....

WEEZ

avahifi

Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #2 on: 23 Feb 2006, 02:19 am »
Kind of an interesting question.  We charge $1299 to strip a big Hafler amplifier bare and install an Omega 600EX circuit set in it.  I sure hope it comes out sounding better than the old stock tired circuits.

We had one small studio send us one big Hafler amp of this series here to rebuild, and then followed that up by having us do eleven more for them.  Must have worked better for them I guess.

Frank Van Alstine

Zheeeem

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Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #3 on: 23 Feb 2006, 03:01 am »
A while back I had a DH220 that I built from a kit, used for a few years, then had Frank turn into one of his older "MosFET" amps.

The hafler itself was a good, but not great amp, especially at its price point.  The MosFET was considerably better, especially in its ability to play deep bass.  In fact, I had been using a pair of BGW 250 B amps strapped mono to run the bass, and the hafler to run treble, on a pair of biamped magnepan Tympani 1(U)s.  A bloody lot of power (a mono BGW runs 500 watts into 4 ohms).  But when I upgraded the hafler to AVA, I found that overall it was considerably better sounding - and gave the feel of greater power - than the three amps it ended up replacing.  

That was something near 20 years ago, and I still have the MosFET and tympanis in my HT system.

AVA convert

Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #4 on: 23 Feb 2006, 03:18 am »
I just sold 2 XL 600 after receiving my 2 Ultra 550 from Frank and I can tell you this, there is absolutly "NO" comparison, as far as my ears are concerened, to the listening quality difference of the two. The 550s are so dead quiet and black. I enjoyed my Haflers, but will NEVER go back, beside that they were never very compatible with my T7 pre-amp, which has just been upgraded to the Ultra also, have had my Omega EC in the system with the Haflers and with the new 550s, huge difference. Can hardly wait to hear the new Ultra pre-amp this week-end.
Don't know if this helps much, is just my prejudiced opinion :D [/i][/quote]

AVA convert

Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #5 on: 23 Feb 2006, 03:20 am »
I just sold 2 XL 600 after receiving my 2 Ultra 550 from Frank and I can tell you this, there is absolutly "NO" comparison, as far as my ears are concerened, to the listening quality difference of the two. The 550s are so dead quiet and black. I enjoyed my Haflers, but will NEVER go back, beside that they were never very compatible with my T7 pre-amp, which has just been upgraded to the Ultra also, have had my Omega Star EC in the system with the Haflers and with the new 550s, huge difference. Can hardly wait to hear the new Ultra pre-amp this week-end.
Don't know if this helps much, is just my prejudiced opinion :D [/i][/quote]

AVA convert

Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #6 on: 23 Feb 2006, 03:20 am »
I just sold 2 XL 600 after receiving my 2 Ultra 550 from Frank and I can tell you this, there is absolutly "NO" comparison, as far as my ears are concerened, to the listening quality difference of the two. The 550s are so dead quiet and black. I enjoyed my Haflers, but will NEVER go back, beside that they were never very compatible with my T7 pre-amp, which has just been upgraded to the Ultra also, have had my Omega Star EC in the system with the Haflers and with the new 550s, huge difference. Can hardly wait to hear the new Ultra pre-amp this week-end.
Don't know if this helps much, is just my prejudiced opinion :D [/i][/quote]

AVA convert

Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #7 on: 23 Feb 2006, 03:33 am »
I just sold 2 XL 600 after receiving my 2 Ultra 550 from Frank and I can tell you this, there is absolutly "NO" comparison, as far as my ears are concerened, to the listening quality difference of the two. The 550s are so dead quiet and black. I enjoyed my Haflers, but will NEVER go back, beside that they were never very compatible with my T7 pre-amp, which has just been upgraded to the Ultra also, have had my Omega Star EC in the system with the Haflers and with the new 550s, huge difference. Can hardly wait to hear the new Ultra pre-amp this week-end.
Don't know if this helps much, is just my prejudiced opinion :D [/i][/quote]

Listens2tubes

Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #8 on: 23 Feb 2006, 04:16 am »
AVA convert is triple-pleased :D

warnerwh

Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #9 on: 23 Feb 2006, 04:39 am »
Quote from: Listens2tubes
AVA convert is triple-pleased :D


Glad you said that, I figured he thought I was stupid and needed to be told the same thing four times :lol:

That top of the line Frank has seems very enticing. It's hard for me to pull the trigger as I'd need to spend money when I shouldn't right now and I'm not positive it would be what I want. The amp I use now is truly very good and although the old Hafler is old it looks like new inside as it sat for quite a few years. The sound of the Hafler isn't quite as good as I'd like but still better than I would have thought after comparing it to other amps. If someone wants to send me a 550 I'd pay shipping both ways and a rental fee for a couple of weeks.

Another concern I have is that you can't change the power cords on these amps and I wonder if Frank realizes what gauge of wire to use. After all he's only been doing this for several decades :peek:

daveshel

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Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #10 on: 23 Feb 2006, 05:03 am »
I have only experienced the Dynaco before-and-after but am indubitably impressed.

AVA convert

Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #11 on: 23 Feb 2006, 01:01 pm »
Glad you said that, I figured he thought I was stupid and needed to be told the same thing four times  

SORRY about that, but when I submitted that reply, a page keeped popping up saying it could not access the data base, so I kept trying to submit not realizing that it was being submitted each time...

skrivis

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Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #12 on: 23 Feb 2006, 02:29 pm »
Quote from: warnerwh
That top of the line Frank has seems very enticing. It's hard for me to pull the trigger as I'd need to spend money when I shouldn't right now and I'm not positive it would be what I want. The amp I use now is truly very good and although the old Hafler is old it looks like new inside as it sat for quite a few years. The sound of the Hafler isn't quite as good as I'd like but still better than I would have thought after comparing it to other amps. If someone wants to send me a 550 I'd pay shipping both ways and a rental fee for a couple of weeks.


I had Frank put MosFET C circuits in my Hafler DH-220. There was a large difference in the sound. Bass was improved _a lot_, and the treble became much more detailed and clear without being harsh. I later had the upgrade to the OmegaStar circuits done and I now have an excellent amplifier that's better than most of what I've heard from other companies (and for not much money at all).

Sheet metal and heat sinks don't really wear out, and Hafler used very good power transformers. The current OmegaStar EX replaces the output devices, so most everything is replaced by new parts. The capacitors in the power supply go after a while, but that probably isn't a concern with a newer amp like the XL 600. (My amp has an AVA-designed board housing a bunch of smaller caps, so it has more capacitance than a stock Hafler. AVA no longer supplies that board AFAIK, so I guess the stock soup can caps work well enough with the newer AVA circuitry.)

Ed Gately and Erno Borbely at Hafler got very good results. It doesn't surprise me at all that your XL 600 compares favorably with a lot of the stuff out there. Some engineers are very good at assembling pieces parts, and others also have real talent. I think the audio industry could use more talented engineers. (Hell, I could probably cobble together amps and preamps using a more or less cookbook approach, and I'm not even an engineer.)

Some of the current computer software probably makes it easier to get equipment that "works." The software will, to some extent, do the work for you. Of course, it also allows a talented engineer to play with and model lots of variations, so they can come up with exactly what they want in a short time. It also allows them to dig deeply into the circuit and get the best performance. Speakers are a good example of the former. You can get software where you just plug in the numbers and out pop the results. You don't even have to understand the math or the relationships between the different variables.


Quote

Another concern I have is that you can't change the power cords on these amps and I wonder if Frank realizes what gauge of wire to use.


I think he's capable of insuring that the power cord is suitable. Also, please note that AVA equipment has a good power supply, so you're not going to improve things with a tweako power cord. The differences between various speaker cables and ICs is vanishingly small, especially when you consider how much you can spend on them. The difference between power cords is orders of magnitude less since they're before the power supply and not at all in the signal path. Plus, they're only the last link in the chain from the power company, and the power company doesn't use tweako wire. :)

warnerwh

Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #13 on: 23 Feb 2006, 03:44 pm »
skrivis: I was only kidding about the power cord.  I could care less if it's built in or removable.  I guess it was only funny to me as I know how Frank feel's about the subject. My opinion is the same.

skrivis

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Hafler compared to Van Alstine amps Sound
« Reply #14 on: 23 Feb 2006, 04:38 pm »
Quote from: warnerwh
skrivis: I was only kidding about the power cord.  I could care less if it's built in or removable.  I guess it was only funny to me as I know how Frank feel's about the subject. My opinion is the same.


Ah, I missed the last sentence in your post, which provided the sarcasm. :)